How Healthy Couples Use Conflict to Grow with Dana Che

In this interview with Dana Che, we break the myth that happy couples don’t fight and show how conflict, handled well, can deepen intimacy. We share mindset shifts, practical language, and simple steps to move from defensiveness to understanding.

• redefining conflict as a growth path
• the costs of avoidance and silent treatment
• modern marriage and renegotiating roles
• separating facts from feelings and stories
• understanding over agreement as the goal
• curiosity and vulnerability as a creation formula
• practical I statements and safer starts
• building trust to share real fears
• how to be genuinely curious, not performative
• scripts and next steps for tough talks

Check out Dana's new book here: Tried and True: Marriage Advice from 12 Imperfect Biblical Couples, https://TriedAndTrueMarriageBook.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to share it with a friend and join the conversation on Instagram.

Transcript

Meet Dana Shea Williams

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever After podcast. I'm your host, Monica Tanner, and I'm really, really, really excited about my guest today. She is a new friend, but I feel like we are our besties already. Her name is Dana Shea Williams. She is a speaker relationship expert and the host of the Rebuilding Us podcast, who encourages, empowers, and inspires people to step up more confidently and courageously in their lives and relationships, and is known for her humor, grace, and candid speaking style. She is an expert communicator, or at least that's what her college degree from Regent University says. Dana lives with her husband of 26 years and their youngest of four children in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Welcome, my friend. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:44

I'm so good, Monica. So glad to be here.

The Myth That Happy Couples Don’t Fight

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Good. Well, I'm excited not only to get to hang out with you, but also for our conversation. Because when I asked you what do you want to talk about, and you said conflict, I said, hooray! Because literally that is chapter four of my book. This idea that happy couples don't fight. So I would love to just dissect this whole thing with you. I know that conflict is your superpower and managing conflict, dealing with conflict, and then just breaking this idea that conflict is a bad thing. So where do you want to start?

From Combative To Courageous: Redefining Conflict

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Well, you know, it's so funny, and I love that myth, you know, that happy couples don't fight because that is so pervasive. You know, a lot of people feel like if my marriage is good, then we're supposed to get along all the time. And I'm like, in what universe? Like, I don't know in what world does that happen. But I remember there was a specific time I used to be a pastor full-time at my church, and uh myself and another pastor, we had been asked to do this speaking event. And so we're at the speaking event, and so after the event, I'm I'm like teaching the the people in the audience about conflict and how conflict is it's not it's not the enemy. And so he says to me, Well, you know, yeah, that's easy for you because you're you can be combative. And I was like, What? Like it just kind of took me for a loop. And I was like, I don't know if combative is the word that you're looking for. And he goes, Oh, no, no, I don't mean like you're combative, it's just that like you're not afraid of conflict. And I just paused and I said, you know, that's a shame that in our society we feel like people who are not afraid of conflict are combative. They are totally different. I don't go looking for conflict, I'm not starting conflicts with people, but I'm not afraid of conflict because I have realized in my marriage when I used to avoid it, which we we all have different ways of how we avoid conflict. For me, I used to be the master silent treatment giver. And so, you know, doing that for so long, it's just not effective. And so I realized I can either continue on this path of just avoiding my husband, avoiding the conflict, or I can learn how to lean into it and see what can this teach us. So personally, it made me grow up and made me mature in my in my marriage as a woman. And then now I've been able to coach and teach this for for many years and helping other couples to see that this is not conflict, it is not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yeah, it's actually, I would argue that it's a good thing. I worry so much about the couples who come in and say we never fight. I'm like, does one of you not or both of you not care? Like, why are you not? You must be disagreeing, you must have different opinions about things, right? And so it's not like, you know, when couples come in my office and they're like, you know, we're fighting all the time, I'm like, great, I can teach you how to turn that into connection versus if they're not fighting, you're like, wait, something is wrong because certainly you're having different opinions. So, right, one of you is either giving a silent treatment or just going along, or you know, stuffing down their feelings. That's that's eventually gonna come out sideways. I mean, there's so many problems with not being able to express differing opinions in a marriage because you married somebody who's very different than you, right? Obviously. And so are both of you fully showing up and like giving yourself to the marriage, and if so, certainly there's gonna be some conflict.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I often say if if you don't have conflict, that just me simply means someone's not telling the truth. Right. I had uh posted on social not too long ago, but I do a lot of premarital counseling. And so when I have couples that are, you know, starry-eyed and they're in love, I'm like, great, and tell me about your last fight. And so when I have those couples that are like, well, we we've never had a fight, like we have disagreements, but I'm like, okay, come back, like literally, like, come back to me when you guys have had a real disagreement because you are setting yourself up for disaster if you feel like this is how your marriage is gonna be. We have different personalities, we have different perspectives, we see the world differently. You're you're going to respond to conflict differently. And so if you are getting married to someone, if you've never gone through that, that's gonna be a rude awakening. And so I really do like to arm couples on the front end, even before they get married, preferably, on how to actually deal with conflict when it arises.

Avoidance, Silent Treatment, And Real Costs

SPEAKER_01 4:51

So interesting. It's funny because I wrote this book for my son and his fiance, like when they announced that they, you know, when he told me he wanted to get married, that's kind of how this book was born. And I remember him calling me and just asking, you know, just like, what do you think, mom? And I said, Well, have you guys had a disagreement about something? Like, tell me about it. And he did, and I was like, Okay, you're ready. Like, as long as we know that she's gonna say that she's gonna be able to respectfully say, like, something is not right here, I disagree with this, like, you know, I have a different opinion, and you guys can work through that, even if it's messy at the beginning. I'm like, okay, okay, I'm okay with it, right? But like, if you are so starry eyed that you're just like, I just want to be happy and we're gonna be happy for the rest of our lives, I'm like, full stop. Like, we need to just date a little bit longer. Like, let's make sure that we're both gonna be willing to show up and then figure it out together. Cause that's where growth happens, that's where connection happens, that's where real intimacy happens, is when you find something out about your partner that you're like, ooh, I wish I didn't know that.

Premarital Truths And Early Disagreements

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Totally. And I think, you know, you you brought you hit the nail on the head. It's intimacy. Conflict really can breed intimacy if done the right way. I think, you know, sometimes like I think about my husband and I, when we're having conflict, it's what's really going on in me, because it's usually not about the conflict itself. I remember there was one time we were driving, we were visiting my sister. She lives about a hundred miles away from us. And so we were visiting her and she had just moved. And so we weren't familiar with like the new area that she moved in. And so my husband was taking an exit that I did not think he should take. I was like, I think we're getting off the interstate too soon. And he's like, No, well, my husband takes, I often often joke him, I call them his long shortcuts because he takes these shortcuts that like we're all around the mulberry bush, you know, 30 minutes outside of where we're supposed to be. And so he's known for doing this, right? So I'm like getting angry, like literally getting, I'm seething inside because I'm like, he is taking the wrong exit. And so it wasn't about the exit. Like when I started really processing, like, yeah, like it's not about the exit. But it's like, you know, when I really started thinking about why are you so angry, Dana? Like, what is going on? I realized like he never listens to me. I feel like he just ignores my input, right? So, like, all now I'm getting to the root of feeling unseen, unheard, insignificant, unimportant. These are my feelings. They're not necessarily the truth, but these are my feelings. And so now this example, this opportunity or situation is giving me another example just to kind of add that to the layers of thoughts that I have about him. That's proof, right? You have a story and it's proof for your story. Exactly. And that's what happens like instinctively. That's what's going on in our minds and we're going through these conflicts. And so if you can catch it early, if you can be like, whoa, whoa, like wait a minute, this is not the truth. There's a difference between facts and truth. I might feel like my husband ignores me or doesn't take my input, but is that really the truth of what's going on here? And so, you know, we have to be taught these things, Monica. As you know, like we're not just born knowing these things instinctively, knowing how to get ourselves out of a conflict spiral. But when we slow it down, when we actually take the time to think about, okay, what is going on with me? This is not about my husband. This is not about the exit. This is not about the trip. There's something happening in me. Let me figure out what I'm what I'm dealing with so that I can show up to this conversation and say, hey, you know, I understand that maybe you feel like you have a better route to go. But when I'm saying like this is the exit that I think we should take, or God forbid, I'm looking at my GPS and it's saying that the road is closed ahead. It would be, it'll be great, you know, if you could listen to me, or whatever the situation is, I can show up to that conversation healthier than lashing out and telling him all the feelings that I'm feeling. You don't listen to me. I last time, and that's what couples do. You go back into the past, you bring out more proof, and then it's just it's just chaos at that point.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah. That's such a great story and such an interesting because it's so much of the advice that's in this book is may have been at one point good advice, but modern marriage is so different now. We say that we want intimacy, we say that we want connection, we say that we want to be married to someone who challenges us, somebody who, you know, loves us for everything, all of our imperfections and all these things, but sometimes we're not willing to actually do the work to create that kind of marriage. And here's the truth of it it requires conflict and healthy conflict resolution to be able to create a marriage that has intimacy in it, where you know, you do feel heard and seen and loved. And that wasn't a requirement way back then in marriage, right? They just wanted to have a partnership where they didn't kill each other, they just kind of tolerated each other. And that's what most of us saw growing up. That we either saw a marriage that was completely dysfunctional, or we saw some sort of just complacency situation where like we can tolerate each other, we're kind of used to each other, it's fine. But we require a lot more now. And so learning about conflict, being okay with conflict, embracing it even is crucial.

Conflict As The Path To Intimacy

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Mm-hmm. And again, it all leads back to intimacy. You're exactly right. Most of our parents, grandparents, they weren't thinking, how intimate of a marriage do I have? Like they were, we need to get stuff done. You know, you like it was it was not that they were devoid of love, but it was more logistics involved, you know, more roles, I think, even in. And I find this even in Christian marriages where I would say most modern Christians today aren't so tied to the traditional roles of the past. And that doesn't mean that we've thrown the Bible out, but it means that there are there's nuance and there's differences. And I think people are starting to realize that some of the things that we've been taught, like women are more emotional. Mm-hmm, not true. You know, like these are things that we've heard, but that we're experiencing are not necessarily accurate. So now we've got more data. I think we've got more lived experiences. People are more willing to share. Like, think about our grandparents were not in marriage groups talking about their marriages. Like now that's very commonplace. And so you get to hear from other people, you get to hear other people's experiences, and you're like, oh, okay, I'm not the only one that's feeling this or sensing this, or we're not the only couple that's going through this in our marriage. And so you're exactly right. With modern marriage, I think that it opens the door for us to start challenging some of those long-held beliefs about what makes a good marriage or what makes a good marriage work.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah, absolutely. And modern marriage looks so different, right? The gender roles and and the the kind of the jobs and the things that we that we do as a married couple, as husband and wife in a married couple have changed so much, not only in the era that we live in, but also within the marriage. That they have to be renegotiated over and over and over again. I mean, hopefully you start marriage, you know, just the two of you building your family, and you get married with these certain ideas or expectations of what that's gonna look like, and then you start adding kids to the mix. And then long gone are the days when, you know, the husband went to work and worked for one company for 50 years and then got a pension, and that's how that worked, right? Now it looks so different. There's so many different ways to work, there's so many different ways that looks that we have to be always renegotiating what we want out of a marriage, and that creates a lot of conflict. What is this gonna look like if both of us are working? What is this gonna look like when we introduce kids? What's this gonna look like when I go out on my own and start something entrepreneurial? What's this gonna look like when I decide to go back to school? There's so many different seasons and stages of marriage that all of these roles and ideas and expectations have to be constantly renegotiated, which creates a lot of conflict.

Facts, Feelings, And Story-Making

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Right, right. It creates even more conflict. And so I think about when my husband and I got married, we were super young, we were 18 and 21. Of course, we knew everything, right? Yes. We knew nothing. We were so dumb. I'm like, we were so young, dumb, and broke. Like that's a pop song, but it was our life. And we for sure, both of us were more traditional, I think, in thought. We had an a way that we thought marriage was supposed to work, but then you stay married to that person, right? And this is why when couples want to get out of it, because it's hard. I'm like, you gotta stay in it, man, because you're gonna grow together and it's gonna be rough. Come on, like strap up your seatbelts, it's gonna be rough at some times, but you will grow and you'll learn together. And so we really had to really have lots of conversations about what does my role as a wife, not just like in the universe, like what does a wife look like, but what kind of wife do you need? Because my husband has specific needs. I have specific needs as a wife that maybe another wife doesn't have. So learning to be honest about what your needs are, and this is why, again, in premarital, I always talk to my couples about needs and expectations. Because oftentimes you will learn that you've got these expectations of your partner that you've never, you've never even acknowledged to yourself, number one, let alone telling them these are the expectations that I have of what a husband does, what a husband looks like, what a wife does, what a wife looks like. So then when that person doesn't meet your expectations, now you're disappointed. And if disappointment is left unchecked, it turns into bitterness, which turns into resentment. And so now conflict is there, but you're approaching it from a place of resentment. And this is where couples say it quote, just didn't work, or we couldn't make it work. It's not that you couldn't make it work, it's not that it didn't work, it's that your heart was hard. The Lord talks about this in when Jesus is talking about divorce and he's talking to his disciples about when can you divorce your spouse? Now, this is thousands of years ago, and this is true for couples that are believers who are Christians and those who are not. The principle is the same. Jesus said it's because of the hardness of your hearts. And I've experienced heart, a hardness of heart in my own life, you know, where again, it wasn't about the conflict per se. I mean, we've definitely gone through some crazy stuff now, don't get me wrong. But most of the time it wasn't necessarily about the conflict, it was about my heart that was hard. It was hardened with unforgiveness, it was hardened with resentment, it was hardened through bitterness. And so I couldn't see my husband. I didn't want to see him. All I wanted to see was me and my rights and how I was right and how he was wrong. And of course, you're not going to be able to problem solve that way when your spouse has now become your enemy. And this can all be mitigated. Again, if we would just take the time, pause, think about what is really going on inside of me before big bitterness gets in there and starts to take root in your heart.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Yeah, so good. I love this quote by my mentor, Terry Real. He says, Who's right and who's wrong? Who cares? Like there is no objective reality in marriage, there's just each person and their own reality. So one of the statements that we that we talk about a lot in coaching is learning how to understand your partner's subjective reality, right? So, like, what is it that your partner is going through and how are you impacting that, right? Like, so being able to understand. So when we talk about conflict, you're talking about one partner has one viewpoint or perspective or opinion or expectation or insert the word there, and one partner has a different one. And so now you're at a crossroads. So are you gonna use that conflict as more proof that you're right and that they're wrong and that you know better and that your way is better? Or are you gonna use it as a way to get to know your partner better, to understand them, to get in into their experience so that you know where they're coming from? Like that is the beautiful thing about conflict, is every time you have a difference of opinion or ideas, you can get to know your partner better if you know how to do it.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Yeah, and you can expand your own perspective. That's where we sharpen each other. That iron iron that's better than mine. Yes. That's right. And so it's not just about me and this is how I do it, and this is what I think, and this is what's best, but I'm willing to listen to your side. It's like maybe my side needs to adjust. Maybe I can learn something here. Maybe my perspective is limited here. And this is where, you know, if you take the broad look at conflict, even outside of marriage, I think back to like 2020 where the world was on fire, right? Like so much happening in our society. Oh my gosh. And, you know, we had COVID, we had the police stuff, we had the race stuff, we had so many things. And Facebook, which used to be, it was already kind of a hot mess, you know, but Facebook really became like a H-O-T-T hot mess, you know. And so I remember looking at different friends' posts and thinking, what in the world? Like, I had no idea that my friends thought like this. And I was tempted to delete and block everybody. Like, literally, I was just like, This is crazy. But what I had to do was I had to say, okay, the relationships are more important than the people's perspectives, right? Like, I I believe that. Like, relationships are more important than your opinions. So let me read that again. Let me read that again. And if the person was really close to me, let me reach out and call them. Let me get curious.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Basically, what you're saying, and not so many words, is let me get curious.

Modern Marriage And Renegotiating Roles

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Let me get curious, let me stop judging because we think of judgment as like, you know, that word has been taken so out of context. Judgment is simply assigning motive to someone's action. So when I can look at someone's post and be like, oh yeah, see, they that I'm judging now, right? So let me stop judging, let me get curious, and let me maybe see if my perspective needs to shift or broaden a little bit. That's mature work. And a lot of people are just not willing to do that work.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah, you know, while you were talking, I have this really interesting, like sometimes I think of it as like, what part of the elephant are you looking at? You know? And so when you think about, I can only function in my life from my own lived experience. Like I literally can't see any other perspective besides what I've been shown. And so you, if you think about that, you're like, what would it be like to just spend your entire life looking at the butt of an elephant? Like that's all you can see, right? But now you bring in my husband's perspective, now my kids' experience, talking to experts like you. And now I'm starting to get an idea because everybody's seeing a different part of this elephant. And so if you could stay open and get curious about other people and their lived experiences and their perspectives, you start to see this magnificent animal. Otherwise, you're just staring at the butt of an elephant for your entire life.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

That's so true. That's so true.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

So let's give some really practical tips. If you're like, oh, I am so conflict avoidant, I have so many clients that are like, just it scares me. I don't like conflict. I don't know. What practical tools can we give them to just get a little bit more like, okay, I'm gonna practice. I'm gonna try to get more comfortable with conflict.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

I think the first thing that you have to do is reframe even your definition of conflict. If you are looking at conflict as a disagreement or as a fight, or as I'm gonna be at odds with someone, then there's no way you're gonna you're gonna step into it. So the very first thing is reframing it, asking yourself, what really is conflict? I think conflict is. An opportunity to grow. And you know, and that could be anything. That could be, I often use this analogy about weightlifting. I love to lift and I love to lift and I hate to lift. I don't like it when it's happening, right? Because I'm in pain. But when I'm done, I feel powerful. I feel like, oh my gosh, I can take on the world. You know, I feel so great. But that's what happens when you lift weights. There's resistance that is introduced to your muscles, and your muscles literally tear. There's muscle fibers that tear. And then when you're at rest, those muscle fibers rebuild, and therefore you build muscle. It's the exact same thing that happens in a relationship. When you introduce tension or conflict into a relationship, it's helping you to build, it's helping you to become stronger. So the first thing I would say is people really need to redefine what conflict actually is. When you do that, it makes it less scary. So the second tip is to go into the fear. Don't be afraid of it. Don't stand back, but just go into it. Hey, I am conflict avoidant. I was raised in a family that taught me that conflict is bad. I'm starting to see it differently now. So now I'm not gonna be afraid of it. I'm just gonna go into it. And then thirdly, when I go into it, you brought up the word curiosity. It's so important. I'm going to be a learner. I am going to be curious, not only as to the other person's perspective, but really more importantly, what's going on inside of me? What is happening inside of me through this conflict? So I think that's a really great place to start. If you can start there with reframing the conflict, redefining it, not being afraid to go into it, and then being really curious and asking yourself what's going on inside of me, then that is going to position you so that when conflict comes, you're able, you're much more able to just deal with it.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Okay. So I was like taking notes as you were talking. I never do that, by the way. But I wanted to be able to like one, two, three, really. I think you gave really powerful points. So number one is redefining conflict. So instead of seeing conflict as something bad or scary, is an opportunity to grow. So you're you're having a conflict and you're like, great, this is an awesome opportunity to not only learn about myself, grow, but also learn something about this other person or this other idea or perspective or something like that. Right. So number one is reframing our idea of what conflict is. Number two, I think I heard you say, be willing to get uncomfortable, right? Like growth happens in discomfort, right? I have this sign at the bottom of my spares that says, be willing to do the hard thing. And so, yeah, if you grew up in a family that was super conflict avoidant and you're not comfortable with it, like it's like, yeah, you got to get in the gym. You got to be willing to like look at these weights and go, like, I know this is going to help me. I know this is going to make me stronger. So I'm going to step in to the discomfort and do the thing. So that's, I feel like number two, be willing to get uncomfortable. And number three is get really curious. What's happening for me right now? Like, what is this stirring up in me? And how can I, you know, kind of regulate my emotions around this? And then you're ready to start learning the skills of conflict resolution, which I feel like we could do a whole nother episode on.

Expectations, Disappointment, And Hardened Hearts

SPEAKER_00 23:06

It's so true. And that's the point that a lot of people start from conflict resolution, but it's like, that is not gonna work. That is putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound because you're trying to teach people how to resolve something that they've not even resolved in their mind that's necessary. So they're still fighting against themselves, feeling like this is bad, this is bad, I shouldn't be in conflict. Where every time my husband and I have conflict, I'm like, all right, man, it's time to learn, you know? Yeah, it doesn't make it easy. It's still difficult because none of us wants to be misunderstood. Like that, really, at the end of the day, we don't want to be misunderstood. We don't want our intentions to be misjudged. But when you start from those three steps, then yeah, now you're like, okay, now what are the skills? Now, how do I actually learn how to resolve this in a healthy way?

SPEAKER_01 23:49

So good. Well, let's talk, let's give a couple of skills that people can start right now. So, number one, I would say let's like, let's lump one through three into just, I would say remembering love. So I love this idea of remembering love. It's like remembering that the person you're talking to is somebody that you love and you live with, right? So you want to resolve this. And the reason why you're talking is to make things better ultimately. So step one is kind of we kind of broke down remembering love into three steps. Here's how we remember love. Remember that this conflict is the opportunity to grow. Remember that it's going to require some discomfort. We're gonna have to walk into a territory that we're not comfortable in, but it's for our growth and betterment. And number three, we gotta start by getting curious. And I think that a lot of people they miss this step. They know that they just don't like what their partner is saying or they don't like the situation, but they haven't really stopped to be like, but how do I feel about it? What do I feel so strongly about here? Why do I feel so strongly about this? What are my reservations about what they're saying? And once you have that information, you're ready to go into the conflict. You're ready to really break it down and show some compassion and empathy and get into your partner's subjective reality, but you've got to do those steps first, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Yeah. And so once you do those steps, just throw I would say some practical steps, like now you're ready. Again, so much of this is gonna be your mindset shift. And so I often teach that the purpose of communication is not agreement but understanding. So it's not about if we're gonna come to a resolution, it's not about are we going to agree? If you're walking into a conversation with that as your goal, get prepared to have that conflict last for three and four months. Because honestly, it could take that long to get on the same page. So it's not about being in agreement, it's about understanding. Can I understand why this thing is so important to my husband or my wife? Can I understand? If at the end of that conversation you have a better understanding, great mission accomplished. So that again is another mindset shift that again, we're not talking about steps to resolve the problem because some problems honestly don't have a resolution.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

And in fact, Sean Gottman says that 69% of marital conflict does not have a resolution, will never be resolved.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

It won't be. And so we've got to get rid of that. You know, we've got to get rid of that idea being the goal is that we're gonna come to a resolution. The second thing is, you know, there are some practical steps that you can do as far as like communication steps. And if you've not been taught this in in college 101, communication 101, or if you haven't had, you know, a coaching experience or what have you, there's some some pretty basic things that you can learn. I think every single coach probably teaches on I statements. So learning how to say, I feel, I need, versus you're doing this and you're making me feel, and you always learning to start those conversations with what you feel. And that goes back to communication being about understanding. I often say, I already know how I feel. I want to know how you feel. I already know what I'm doing, but how is what I'm doing affecting you? And this is where those I statements become important because if let's say your spouse is hanging out all night, right? And you're feeling disrespected by that, you're feeling afraid. Maybe you're afraid they're gonna have an affair. I don't know. And so if when they come home, you just lambast them with you're always late, you're you're so selfish, you, you, you, you, you. Well, first of all, now you put them on the defense because all they hear is accusation and you never told them anything about you. The more vulnerable way is to say, I'm really afraid that we're growing apart. That is so vulnerable, right? And that's the precisely why people don't do it. Because they're afraid. If I really let you see me for real, what are you gonna do with that? Are you gonna hurt me? Are you gonna take advantage of me? Are you going to use this against me later? And so trust is a huge part of having conversations that end well. If I don't trust you with my heart, if I can't trust you with my real feelings, well then I'm gonna put a mask up and then I'm gonna keep just accusing you of everything because I won't let you really see inside of me. That's the deeper work. So I would just kind of how can I simplify that is to say just use those eye statements, you know, as vulnerable as you're willing to be, and that's a strength, you can grow in vulnerability, but as vulnerable as you're willing to be, allow your spouse to see you and not everything that they're doing.

Understanding Subjective Reality

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yes, I love that so much. I would say my number one when I'm talking to couples about this, my number one thing is if you're having a conversation that that includes some disagreement, ask more questions than making statements. Like make sure that your understanding is the goal, right? And how can we make understanding the goal? It's to ask a lot of questions. Just get really curious about yourself and about your partner. And then I teach this equation that I think totally applies here. And it's because you were talking about vulnerability, it's curiosity plus vulnerability equals creation to me. You can create anything, a better sex life, a budget, a parenting strategy together, whatever it is that you're trying to create, a beautiful life, understanding it requires curiosity and vulnerability. So just remember that. So like we're we're coming up to time here, but I just I really want to, I want to give you some like really solid takeaways. If you're listening to this episode, number one, prepare yourself for conflict by doing these three things that we talked about, right? Reframing it into an opportunity to grow. Be willing to get a little uncomfortable. Like, here is our advice to you. You're going to be bad at it before you're going to be good at it. It's just like any other skill, whether you're learning a sport or an instrument or anything. I promise this is going to have more value in your life than any other skill you could pick up. But if you get good at this, just remember you've got to start bad. But even if it's messy in the beginning, it's going to be better than not stepping into the gym, than not stepping into the discomfort. So be willing to be uncomfortable and then get curious. Realize that curiosity plus vulnerability is going to equal something great, which is understanding, understanding your partner better.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Yeah. And let me just say, Monica, I just want to help people too. Like when we say be curious, I was listening to this podcast the other day and I was chuckling at myself because I said he's in coaching. The podcast host is in coaching because he kept saying, I'm curious about like every question was I'm curious. And I was like, Can you please stop saying that? So you don't you don't have to say to your spouse, like, I'm curious, but you can ask questions like, tell me more about that decision that you made, or help me understand that thought process. And the way that you ask those questions are equally important because they can come across as not being genuine. They can also come across as like patronizing a little bit, like, tell me more. You're not your spouse's coach, you're not your spouse's therapist. You are there to learn about your spouse, about what motivates them, about the decisions that they make. And so I would say with curiosity, just make sure that it's genuine curiosity. If you don't really want to know something, don't ask because then that's gonna introduce another conflict with your spouse is gonna be able to see through that. Like, do you really want to know, or are you just trying to start something here? So make sure that it's genuine curiosity.

Curiosity Over Judgment On And Offline

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Yeah, I like to think about going back to when you were like dating your spouse and you thought they were so cool as like kind of this new person. And sometimes when you're in a conflict with them, and and I think about like bigger life decisions. I think like how you're gonna educate your children, where you're gonna live, what you know career path you're going to take, how many kids you're going to have. When you're talking about like a bigger decision, you really are getting to know your spouse again, right? And so, like take yourself back to that dating period when you were like wanted to know everything that they were thinking at all times and see if you can bring that into the conflict. See if you can be like, I really want to know your thoughts about this. I want to know what your experience is with this growing up. I want to know, like, I want to know everything about you. Like, tell me about when you were a kid and your how did your parents respond to things like this? Is there an experience you had that really made you think deeply about this certain topic or or whatever? Like, you can do the same on yourself too. Like, I know sometimes I in life, like just totally on autopilot, and I'm just like doing the things that I was raised to do that I that I am modeling from somebody that I respect or something like that. And I'm not really thinking about how do I feel about this? You know, what do I really think about this? Or am I just doing this because somebody I respect also did it, you know? But get curious about yourself and then get vulnerable. Be like, you know what? I haven't really ever thought about it the way you're saying it. So, like, help me understand how did you come to this conclusion and why do you feel so strongly about this? And it really can create a lot of connection and intimacy when you when you do this. And so, like, we're giving you something super simple. Ask a lot of questions, get really curious. Try to understand your partner instead of just defending your point and being right.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Well, thank you so much, Dana. This has really been so fun. I hope that the listeners at the very least are like, okay, conflict is good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Conflict is not scary. It's not scary, it's not scary.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Yeah. And actually, the reality is it might be. Conflict might be scary for you. And that's okay. That's a you gotta start somewhere. Like if you can just say, you know what, conflict is kind of scary for me. And you can even say that to your partner. I don't like conflict. However, I just listened to this podcast and I just realized that conflict is actually an opportunity to grow and create more intimacy here. So I'm going to try to venture into this uncomfortable place with you. I know that I'm supposed to ask questions and seek for understanding. And so can we do this together? And just let them know that's vulnerable and that's real, and that's gonna create a lot of intimacy and good conversations. And if you get stuck, let us know. We are both here for you. Dana, why don't you tell the listeners how they can reach you, get a hold of you, ask all the good questions?

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Yeah, like I really love giving people practi practical tips. And so I've got a whole PDF guy that I give away for free. You can find that at Dana Shea.com forward slash peace talks. Like, I really want couples to have peace and talk in their relationships. So Dana Shea, that's D-A-N-A-C-H-E.com forward slash peace talks. And it's all about helping couples to turn those tense moments into more trust-building conversations. So I'm a big person on uh conversation starters. You know, how do I start this conversation? Because a lot of people just don't know how to start. And so they'll be able to find all that on that PDF. And then again, you know, I've got a podcast as well. Monica, you are a guest on my show. And so they can listen to the Rebuilding Us Marriage podcast where we're constantly talking about how to build connection because that's really my goal. It's not just teaching people how to avoid conflict or even to resolve conflict, but to go even deeper to build connection. So you can find all about that, all of that, uh my social media links, all of that stuff at DanaShea.com.

Practical Reframe: Conflict As Growth

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Perfect. Well, thank you again so much for your time. And I really, really like my prayer for this episode is like, you guys, conflict is a good thing. If you're if if you're disagreeing in your relationship, it means you're both alive. It means you're both human, it means you care. And let's really work together to make conflict less scary and more powerful, a more powerful way to connect and create intimacy in your relationship. So I will be back here, same time, same place next week. And until then, happy marriaging.