Marriage and Intimacy Tips for Christian Couples: Secrets of Happily Ever After

Finding Wisdom In The Wound with Tony Miltenberger

• Monica Tanner and Tony Miltenberger • Season 4 • Episode 347

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We explore how prolonged stress can turn small cracks into deep canyons and how couples can explore those canyons together with empathy, curiosity, and clear practices. Tony shares tools for moving from emotional reactions to intentional responses and offers a hopeful path to deeper intimacy.

• defining prolonged stress and why it magnifies small issues
• emotional intensity scale and spotting old wounds in new conflicts
• switching from reaction to response with inner child work
• grace as empathy plus curiosity in daily moments
• cooperation over compromise and playing on the same team
• disciplines as guardrails for intimacy and calm
• seasonal family vision and renegotiating roles
• code words, listening without fixing, and safe processing
• finding gifts on the other side of wounds
• process goals that keep commitment alive

You can pick up the book on Amazon.com or on, wisdominthewoundbook.com. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend or leave a review.


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SPEAKER_00:

Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever After podcast. I'm your host, Monica Tanner, and I'm super excited about my guest today. He is a fellow author, and I am so excited to discuss his book and dig into the concepts that are so relevant to married couples. My guest today is Tony Miltenberger, but I usually just say Milt because that's your handle, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, TW Milt. Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

They don't usually have to say the whole thing drawn out. And he is a podcaster, an author, a friend, a content creator, and just a superhuman. And I am excited to discuss this concept of accepting and learning about our own brokenness as well as our partners and being able to accept and love each other through all of that. He's the expert, and I cannot wait to hear what you have to say. Welcome, Tony, to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Monica, it's so good to be on here. Thank you so much for having me on. You were have been on my podcast a couple times, and I just value your content so much. And uh I was a part of your intimacy group not too long ago. I think that's probably a couple years ago now, but uh you've done so much to help my marriage. So I'm I'm so excited to be in this dialogue with you today.

SPEAKER_00:

Amazing. First of all, tell me about the book. How did it like what inspired it? What made you want to write about this topic?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, interestingly enough, it's not the book that came out was not the book that I had originally thought I was gonna write. And so um during 2020, when the world felt very shut down and uh disjointed, my wife and I were on many walks together. And most couples that I know walked, and we love to walk still, but we were doing two walks a day during that time period. And there was a day in that season where I looked at my wife, her name is Karen, and I looked at Karen and I said, Babe, I've been here before. And she was like, Yeah, we were here this morning. And I was like, No, no, no, not literally, like emotionally, I've been here before. And I I had the privilege of serving in the army for 14 years, the reserves, and during that time period, I was deployed from 2004 to 2005. And one of the things that I began to realize is that prolonged stress turns cracks in our lives into canyons. And so prolonged stress is the any kind of stress that where you don't know what's gonna happen, you don't know the outcome, right? That season of 2020 was one of those seasons of prolonged stress for the world. Um, but I had also experienced that when I was deployed. And there are seasons, you know, when your kids are toddlers, like it's prolonged stress. Like it's there's lots of seasons in our life where there's stress that just is around and it has this ability to take normal things in our life and blow them out of proportion, kind of blow them up, right? So cracks into canyons. You can ignore a crack, you can step over a crack, but you could get lost in a canyon. You could die in a canyon. Yeah, you could fall off the edge. Fall off the edge. But one of the beautiful parts about canyons is that you can explore them in ways that you can never explore cracks. And so this book is really the maturation of that idea that maybe maybe it's time for all of us as husbands and wives to blow up our cracks and to dive into our canyons so that the scary part of our insides don't get as much vote in how we live our lives.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that was really deep, and I love the way you said that because the reality is, is our cracks are so vulnerable, our canyons are so vulnerable, and we expend so much energy trying to protect ourselves and other people from them that they do really run our lives. Like they run, they wreak havoc on our relationships, the adaptation of trying to protect. And I always say that it's really hard to have an intimate friendship and a passionate partnership when you can't share all of yourself with your spouse. Cracks and all.

SPEAKER_01:

One of the interesting things that happen is that uh we're all emotional people. Like I've never met someone who's not like, oh, I don't have any emotions. Now we emote differently. I'm an extroverted, emotional guy. My wife tends to be a little bit more refrained, a more uh intentional kind of human. And so here's the the truth, though, the wisest leaders that I know, the people that seem to have the greatest level of intimacy, they don't have an absence of wounding or pain, but they have an intimacy with it so that it doesn't scare them. And so what I try to help people with, couples specifically, is to kind of challenge them that I don't want you to have an emotional reaction, I want you to have an intentional response.

SPEAKER_00:

Ooh, say that again. That was really deep.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't want you to have an emotional reaction, I want you to have an intentional response.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so the wisdom in the wound is this idea that once you get to know your own wounding, your own brokenness, your own stuff, then we can begin to feel our feelings so that we can have an intentional response. And and so another way to think about it is like, I want the emotions in the car, I just don't want them in the driver's seat.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a good analogy. It's really interesting the difference between my husband and I, because you know, we always had this joke, like, he doesn't have any stuff. Like, you know, he had the perfect childhood. You know, he like he's he no stuff, right? But in reality, he does have stuff, but he also has this really deep knowing that there's enough love. So he doesn't have to protect all of his stuff. He just, like you said, he has a really good relationship with it. Like he knows who he is, and he also knows that people are gonna love him regardless. Whereas when we first got married, I was very protective of my stuff. I was a perfectionist, I had to put on the facade of perfection, I had to make sure that everybody liked me and that I was doing everything to a very high level because for me, I wasn't sure that there was enough love. I felt like I had to walk around in the world earning my love. And if I showed any cracks or any canyons or anything, people were gonna withdraw love from me. And so that was like a big, beautiful metamorphosis for me and thing that I learned in my marriage is because my husband loved me regardless. I couldn't hide those things from him as hard as I tried. And he just loved me through them. And so my biggest hope and prayer for my children is I know I'm certain we've made mistakes and we've screwed them up in all different ways, but I hope that they never have to wonder whether or not we love them or if there's enough love. Like they can, they can be okay in all of their brokenness because we love them, there's enough love in the world, they don't have to earn it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, one of the interesting things that that I've noticed as I've done more and more of this work is that there isn't a person in the world who's willing to not concede the idea that we live in a broken world. So, in that brokenness, there comes consequence of that. The consequence is this wounding. And so, kind of one of the assert uh assertions I make in the book is that somewhere between the ages of four and twelve, all of us experience what what I call little tea trauma, right? And a lot of people who study this kind of work use that term little tea trauma. And why it's little tea trauma is that there was no malice, there was no malintent, it's just it becomes the brokenness of the world, and that becomes the lens at which you look at the world. And so all of us have this version of little tea trauma, and it shows up in various ways. One of the tools that I give in the book is very similar to what you were talking about, it's called the emotional intensity scale. That anytime on a scale from one to ten, your emotions spike above a six, it's it's almost always more about you than it is the other person. So, for example, if my wife comes home and says something to me about why I didn't put my clothes away, and the way she says it causes me to go, ah, you know, and have this big emotional response. Am I really mad at her? Or is it really just bumping up against some old pain? And the reality is, just like you were talking about, it's that old pain. And so what happens is that I can't respond appropriately to the situation because the pain of my past is now dictating the words that come out of my mouth and separating the one person who I want to be walking with me through this stuff. And that's what I mean by not letting the emotions drive is that if you can take a moment, feel your feelings, trace the wound all the way back to where it began, and realize I'm having an emotional reaction to the way this came out of her mouth, not actually to her, and nor is it her fault. Then we can have an actual dialogue if we need to about the problem, or I could just put my clothes away. Right? Like it's one of those things, right? Like just power down. I gotta power down so that we can actually dialogue.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that. And I love how you talk about it as the emotional intensity scale, because that's really true. Because when you know, we get all out of sorts about something, nine times out of ten, we're not responding to what's right in front of us. We're responding to right, that old wounding. And it's so true. And if we can start to recognize it, and like you said, power down, you know, take a moment, take a breath, give some love to that inner child, right? That inner child that's coming out and trying to protect us, trying to fix the situation, make it okay. You know, if we can just say, look, I love you, it's fine, I can deal with this in my wise adult self, as opposed to that six, seven, eight-year-old who was like not able to handle the emotional intensity of the past, right?

SPEAKER_01:

So what's what's crazy, Monica, is that it's not just bad emotions, too. Like it's also good emotions, right? And so if my son, I have two boys that both play football, one of them picks six, takes it back to the house, and I go full-blown Midwestern dad on the sidelines, and I start chest bumping and screaming like I'm losing my mind, they probably bumped up against my wound as well.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And so I'm I'm having an emotional spike. Now keep in mind, I'm not putting any judgment on that. Like there's no there's no right or wrong. It's just the reality is that am I okay with the behavior that the emotion is driving in that moment? Because the emotion is driving, not my intentional response.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And where we get into trouble, I think, in relationships is we let our mouth respond emotionally instead of letting our brain power down and think about this intentionally, and that's where we get into trouble. That's where grown adults get kicked out of soccer games. That's where we just, you know, we see it all the time. Like, are you really that upset that that 12-year-old umpire didn't make that call the right way? Or is it really tied to something much deeper in your own life? Because that's that's true, and it happens unfortunately more than I know we all want it to.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's so true. Well, and the reality is that inner child, because I talk about it as your inner child, right? That's responding, that's that's drive like all of a sudden that your inner child, your little five-year-olds, jumped up on your lap and like taking control of everything, right? They're always gonna be with you, they're always gonna be in the car with you. Like it would be silly to think we're just gonna wipe that all out, take away all of our triggers, we're gonna heal off all of our wounds completely. No, it's always gonna be there, but it's just a matter of like seeing seeing that little child and just being like, I love you, I've got you, I've got this. Like you can just climb in the car seat, buckle yourself in, and just chill because I've got this, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, one of the things I say all the time on the podcast is that if you aren't dedicated to your disciplines, you'll be destroyed by your distractions.

SPEAKER_00:

Ooh. I feel like you're like got these beautiful one-liners.

SPEAKER_01:

I should well, I've just been doing it a long time. But here's the reality: nobody ever wakes up and says, Man, today's the day that I want to ruin my marriage. Right? Today's the day I want to alienate myself from my children. Oh, I'm thinking about getting fired today, right? Like we just don't do that very often. But what happens is we we stop doing the activities that keep us in a healthy place. Right. So disciplines lead to freedom. So, you know, here's what I know in my marriage that if I want to have the ability to respond intentionally to my wife, to honor that inner child, to be aware of my wound, it starts with me getting up and working out. It starts with me going on walks with her, it starts with me dating her, it starts with me praying over her, it starts with me doing all of the disciplines that I know keep me in a good place. Because if not, when something pops off, right, whether it's uh her or me or mother-in-law or whoever, then I'm not in a place to handle it well. And that inner child or that emotion or that wounding then jumps into the front seat and takes us straight off the road. And so, in my disciplines, in my intentionality, then what we get is the gift of guardrails. And those guardrails keep us in alignment with where our vision and our mission and kind of where we feel like we're being called to respond to the world.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's so good. And I love what you're saying because all of those things that you mentioned, working out, praying, like doing those things, that is what helps you feel good about yourself. Like you're giving yourself what you need, you're showing up in integrity, you're doing the things that you know are right, and that helps you show up as the best version of yourself, right? It's like when we don't do those things, you're right. It's that we don't feel good about ourselves, we have less control over our emotional responses because we're not doing the things that help us be in integrity with what who we know we are.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, somewhere along the way, culture has kind of perverted this idea about sacrifice. Oh, I need to sacrifice for my spouse or I need to sacrifice for my kids. And there's probably moments in life that are like that, that there are seasons where it's, but it's brief seasons. Sacrificial love should not be the foundation of any relationship that you're in. It has to start with that self-love, it has to start with that understanding who you are, what you believe, your values. And you know, Karen and I have been married for it'll be 23 years in February. We have very different values, but our our our mission and our vision for our family are aligned. And so we operate kind of differently, very differently. I'm extroverted, she's a little bit more introverted. I'm the drama queen in our marriage where I just like have big emotive kind of I need to verbally process everything. And she's like the steady rock. I'm kind of more the entrepreneur. She's more like, maybe we should put this on a spreadsheet. And I'm like, we just do it. Like, let's just sell everything and move.

SPEAKER_00:

Jump and build the parachute on the way down.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh and so I, you know, the the truth is that we have to create those rhythms that keep us in a good place so that our wounding doesn't take over and put us in a position that we ultimately don't want to be in.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. I think it's hard because when you're you're speaking to women and I agree with you, the sacrifice, the the compromise, the, you know, when you ask older couples, you know, what's the one thing that you tell young people about being married or whatever, they'll say, learn how to compromise. And I always get so like, wait, what? No, that's not right. Because compromise means I give a little, you give a little, we meet in the middle, neither of us actually gets what we want. And I just don't think that's a good basis or feeling like I've sacrificed for 20 years, you know, get you your career. The the reality is, is it's can we cooperate? Can we make room in this marriage for both of us to actually become the best versions of ourselves?

SPEAKER_01:

That I just say this like I just want I just want couples to be on the same team.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Let's just get on the same team. And you don't have to be the same.

SPEAKER_01:

You can have very different players on the same team. That's 100% right.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. You're both trying to win, but you've got offense, you've got defense, you've got really important jobs that people I think most couples don't often establish what winning looks like. Well, right. And also they become opponents, right? If you have different values, different opinions, different stances on things. It's like now we're gonna go head to head and see who wins, or to see if I can convince you to think like me, or if I can control, you know, the the narrative, like right? Like if you would just think like me, or if you would just do it my way, we could be happy. And now you you've pitted each other against each other. But instead, it's like, can I do the, you know, can we work together? Can we cooperate? Can we collaborate and come up together with something better than either of us could have on our own? But it's us against the problem. You know, it's us and our different viewpoints and perspectives against the thing that's in front of us, not against each other.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think one of the things that uh we got some really good wisdom from a c older couple in our life who said, We, you know, we're just trying to create a home that our kids want to come back to. Right. And that's kind of our vision that we're in right now. And we've got a bunch of teenagers, so things are wonky here all the time, and it's emotional here all the time. And, you know, we've got one at college and two uh, you know, one in high school, one in middle school. And so it's kind of just uh that's a whirlwind. So then our goal is like we talk about those vision statements. Hey, we want to create a home that our kids want to come back to, and then we have mission statements for seasons, and so we sit down and talk about that. So, like, you know, right now one of our seasons is one of our family phrases is to take the trip. Like we're just in a season where we're taking the trip. My yard looks like garbage, but we're taking the trip, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Because so important.

SPEAKER_01:

We've just decided that this is what we're gonna do in this season because we got this college-age kid who's playing football up and down the east coast, and we want to go watch games, and so we're gonna go take the trip, and we're just gonna travel and we're gonna do it, and we'll we'll deal with what we have to deal with later. But you know, we can't get there if you don't do that inner work first to say, what do I need in this? What does she need in this? Because marriage really is just two wounded people bumping up against each other's stuff all the time, trying to figure out how to process it well so that you know we can live happily ever after.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree with you. I and I think that's so awesome because you used my my language there, happily ever after. But it's about having the communication skills to be able to renegotiate in the different seasons, right? Because it's gonna look differently. Like when I had little tiny children at home, I don't want to be leaving and going to work and like doing all that stuff, right? But eventually when they got a little bit older, I was like, no, I mean, I want to be like a steady here, you know, stay-at-home mom at the crossroads. Like when they get home from school, when they get home from dates, when they, you know, leave for school, like I'm always here. But I also have this really fulfilling thing that I do while they're at school. And we've my husband and I have re had to renegotiate that many times, right? We owned a business together. Then, you know, I pulled myself out of the business, and at one point I went back to school for a time, you know, and then we sold the business, and now he has, you know, kind of a nine-to-fiver type situation going on. We're constantly having to renegotiate how you can get what you need and I get what I need. We still have this common goal of providing this really steady, loving, you know, present household for our children where they love to be, and they'll definitely come back to, you know, that's also our goal. But what it looks like has to be consistently renegotiated. It can't be like, well, you know, we got married. I thought you were going to be a stay-at-home mom, and that was just gonna be it. You know, now I'm super disappointed because you've changed the thing. Like, no, it's like we're constantly different seasons and stages and phases. You have to be able to communicate to renegotiate.

SPEAKER_01:

And one of the interesting parts about that too is that as you're doing that, you begin to become more aware of the of what I would call like the edges of your wound. So what bumps up against your wound when your kids are little is different than what bumps up against your wound when they're in adolescence or you know, dealing with that eye roll from that teenage daughter, or like all of those things. So it's it's constantly learning and then sharing. Like, hey, babe, like, oh man, I just I don't know what it is about our daughter in this season where she is just like grading, or you know, it's it's it's having the courage to say, I don't have an answer, I just need you to know this is kind of what I'm feeling. So protect me from ruining our larger vision, right?

SPEAKER_00:

And so, you know, it's and it's those reminders of like this is you know, this is who who you wanted to be, remember? And I'm like, yes. So it, you know, are the decisions you're making right now working against your goals or are they working with them? And how can I support you to, you know, achieve the things that you have in your sights, but also remember, you know, you know, what your real goals are, right? Yeah, absolutely. All of that's so important. The thing about marriage that I absolutely love is you have a mirror, like you have somebody who's constantly aware of your weaknesses, your shortcomings, like where you're, you know, where you're maybe getting off the trail, like, you know, getting a little bit lost in the weeds, right? And if you have a great trusting relationship, you can help each other, you can point each other back in the right direction, right? But you have to be able to build that trust, like knowing that your partner wants what's best for you.

SPEAKER_01:

One of the definitions that I give in the book is this idea about grace. So grace is empathy plus curiosity. And I think that's one of the things that as couples, we can always lean into is hey, what does it mean to be empathetic with your spouse right now? What does it mean to be curious? I think the closer someone is to us, the harder it is to be curious about what's going on inside of them. And so when your spouse comes home or your kids come home and they're in a place, then you can just tell. Like you can always tell when your spouse is in a place. Karen comes home and she's in a tizzy. Uh, my response shouldn't be, oh man, I gotta hide, right? Like I got a cat five going on down here, right? Like I just need to leave, like I need to go. Uh, dude, is that something in the garage calling? You know, and I know a lot of guys do that. The reality is, though, is that the wiser move is to be curious and empathetic. And that's what Grace lived out looks like. And if I can be curious about what's going on inside of my wife, then in return, not only am I modeling what I need, but I'm also creating a level of intimacy that will just build into our marriage. It's like, hey, I I really do care about you and what you're feeling in this moment. I don't have to do anything with it. Uh you know, we created a code word. I'm a big code word fan. Like, I love code words too. One one of ours is I I gotta, hey, I just need you to sit in the mud puddle with me. Which means like I just need I'm I'm about to go on a rant about what happened. And I just need you to sit in here and just kind of hold my hand, maybe tell me I'm gonna be okay. Let's call that person names together or something, right? Let's figure out what does it look like to just sit in the mud puddle with me so that I can complain and know that it's not about you. I don't need you to fix it, but here we are. And like those are the kind of practices that as you become more aware of who you are, you can do that at a out of you get to the good stuff quicker, you know, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I love it. I just did that this morning. Like, literally, I was so upset about something and I was like, I'm gonna tell you this. I don't want you to react to it because I know it's not completely thought out, not logical yet. Like, I just I'm I'm just upset and I need you to just listen, right? And like I can tell when my husband's like gonna try to fix it. And I'm like, no, please do not give me any advice or tell me what I should be doing right now because I have like I said, I have not thought it all out yet. I know a lot of it doesn't make sense and is not logical yet. I'm still in my emotion about it, and I just need you to hear me. But I like I have the wherewithal and the communication skills to be able to ask for what I need. Like instead of just letting him correct me or give his opinion or whatever, like I know he's about to, and I'm like, nope, I'm not ready for that. Like maybe in a couple of days I'll want to know what you think. But right now, I just need you to listen to me to figure it out. Like I'm processing through it.

SPEAKER_01:

It's one of the one of the things that I uh I think so many couples could just be a little bit more intentional about practicing through some of that dialogue. Right? Like that that kind of the reason that you can do that well is because you're practiced. You've got lots of reps. Yeah, right. You got lots of reps talking about it, you got a lot of reps doing it.

SPEAKER_00:

And so But I also trust him. Like I know what he's gonna say, I know what his opinion is. And like I I'm like, I'm not ready to hear it. Like, I'm not ready, but I trust that you can handle me out of sorts. Like I was out of sorts this morning.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I just need you to hold it with me so that uh it doesn't feel as heavy.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly, exactly. I knew that I could trust him to handle me being out of sorts, otherwise, I would have had to go, you know. I could have called a girlfriend, which I did after he left for work. You know, like I I kind of I'm at the point where I kind of know who who I trust to kind of hold me when I'm out of sorts, and that's okay, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

And then the best part about that is is that you don't put any judgment or shame on it.

SPEAKER_00:

No, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Judgment and shame tend to shut down intimacy, and intimacy is one of the ways that we get to growth and healing. And so, you know, I tell couples all the time, like, hey, like you're allowed to be out of sorts, you're allowed to be angry, you're allowed to be have those, just don't don't let them drive the decision.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Exactly. And I can ask him for what I needed. Like, I need you to be the steady rock, not the steady rock with the solution, just the steady rock to anchor me while I kind of fly this way and fly that way and figure it out.

SPEAKER_01:

It's one of those hard balances to to to understand what you need. Um, it's why I'm such a big fan of like doing this kind of work in community, having some people, you know, having some people in your life who are who have gone before you, whether that be, you know, somebody like you or me, coaches, or those kind of other areas that are like, I just need to talk through this. And I maybe I've never been here before. And I've got a whole list of guys that I call when I'm like, am I crazy? Am I losing my mind? You know, and and most of the time they'll say yes and right. And that's good. That's what I want from a friend.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's so good. And and it's true. I the reason why I think you and I do what we do is because P you can't see the label from the inside of the bottle, right? And so if you're being driven around by your five-year-old, you can't always see that, right? You need somebody to show you, like this is actually what's happening. And if you, you know, if you let your five-year-old drive, these are what the consequences are. You're probably gonna get in a car accident, and both of you will, you know, be badly hurt, right? So it's like you you need somebody to show you. Like it kind of um, one of my mentors loves to say, you're kind of like the the ghost of Christmas future. You're kind of showing them, like, listen, if you don't write the ship, here's what's gonna happen, and it's gonna be painful. So, you know, you've got to make the choices today that are gonna give you the tomorrow that you want. That's right.

SPEAKER_01:

It it takes a really long time to become an overnight success. Yes. Yeah. And you know, one of the beautiful parts about that too is that it also works for the positive, right? Is that on the other side of your wound is almost always your greatest gift. So that same thing that gets you out of sorts is the same thing that makes you really gifted in a lot of different areas. And so we also need our spouses to help us see our gifting and be like, no, this is what you do really well, and this is how you crush it, and this is that same idea. It's like grace and truth. The truth is, is like, yeah, you are emotional about this, but you're awesome at this. You know, my my wound is uh my parents had unplanned twins when I was four years old, and so I went from being the youngest to the middle. And so, in my mind, the small tea traumatic event that happened was that I felt like I didn't matter anymore. And so I felt like I wasn't seen, right? So, what do I do? Of course, I pick jobs that put me in front of microphones and platforms and people, right? Because I'm driven by that. I I Know we are and so but here's the unique ability, right? And I I would uh probably guess that we both have it. We have a unique ability to see people, yeah. And so when some somebody sits in front of me, like I can see it now. My wife, when my wife calls that out in me, it comes with a different level of truth because I naturally have my own doubt that that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, my little tea wounding was was the love thing, right? And so I feel like my greatest strength is to be able to to love the the people who feel unloved, right? Like I hope that people feel loved by me, even when they're not sure that there's enough love, because that is my greatest wounding and my greatest gift, right? But like I'm aware of it. And I feel very deeply when somebody withdraws love from me. Like that is still to this day. That's when my five-year-old comes out and is like, what do I need to do here? Which heads do I need to bang together? You know?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and it goes back to what you said earlier about your husband, right? That's why you pick part of the reason why you picked him because he's got so much love that you're never worried about that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. And I'll never forget the time when he said, It's not in my programming to walk away. Because I I remember like the most vulnerable I got with him is like, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'm just waiting for you to go. This girl is so crazy. I can't do it. I'm walking away. And my husband's like, it's not in my programming to walk away. Like, I don't walk away when things get hard. And it was the greatest gift he could have ever given me. And now, 23 years later, I have so much trust and faith in that. Not that he can't walk away, absolutely. At any moment he could walk away, but that he has chosen repeatedly not to.

SPEAKER_01:

What a beautiful gift, right? Like it's and it's every day, choosing all of those things, uh, all the disciplines, all that stuff. That's how we stay in the relationship. Like, I just firmly believe no one ever falls in and out of, you know, we don't fall in and out of love, we fall in and out of commitment. And it's not commitment to monogamy, right? It's commitment to the disciplines of building that life together. So it's like, oh, I'm just gonna blow off the date night, or I'm gonna blow off physical intimacy, or I'm gonna blow all ah, we just don't need to do that right now. And then eventually after a season of that, all of a sudden you're in completely different zip codes emotionally, spiritually, physically, intimately, right? Like all of those things just kind of pile on top of each other. And so, you know, if you want to build the life that you desire with your spouse, you know, I I I would argue that it it begins with being really clear about what activities are gonna get you there, like the process goals, not the outcome goals.

SPEAKER_00:

So good. Tony, this has been so fun to have this conversation with you. Tell us how we can get the book, and then I want to give you the opportunity to just like lay it on us. Like, what is it that you think is so most important that we should all know?

SPEAKER_01:

Uh, well, you can pick up the book on Amazon.com or on my website, wisdominthewoundbook.com. It's it's available wherever books are sold. And so uh would be humbled and honored if you read it. And then I love your feedback too. So if you have thoughts, leave a review or shoot me an email, tony at twmilt.com.

SPEAKER_00:

Love it. And then peace in the show notes. Yes, I want I want to hear wisdom. What is the wisdom that comes from your wound that you feel like is so important for us to know?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, let me just say this. If you're listening to this and you feel out of sorts today, if you feel like you have a string of days that are out of sorts, wisdom isn't the absence of wounding, it's the intimacy with it. And so let me just challenge you to take some time in solitude, take some time intentionally, to create a life that has enough space that gives you permission to feel your feelings so that you can show up and be the person that you're called to be. To be the spouse, to be the parent, to be the entrepreneur and the leader, is that when you create space for all of the things that are happening inside of you, the best things will come as a result. And that's my hope and my prayer for you.

SPEAKER_00:

Dear listener, I hope you've gotten a lot out of this episode because I do feel like you were talking directly to me just now. So thank you, Tony. Thank you for being here. Thank you for the work you do. Thanks for being my friend. And I hope that everyone got what they needed out of this episode because I know I certainly did.

unknown:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you.