Marriage and Intimacy Tips for Christian Couples: Secrets of Happily Ever After

How to Create More Intimacy Through Communication with Nick and Amy McKinlay

• Monica Tanner - Marriage and Intimacy Coach, Nick McKinlay, Amy McKinlay • Season 4 • Episode 346

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Today, we're talking about how Christian couples can build deeper intimacy by turning awkward silence into simple, safe conversations. Nick and Amy McKinlay of Ultimate Intimacy share research-backed prompts, healthy masculinity traits, and ways to navigate power dynamics when desire is mismatched.

• why communication is the core of sexual intimacy
• how curiosity and vulnerability create safety
• traits of healthy masculinity women find attractive
• using prompts, card decks and the app to start talks
• handling mismatched desire and power dynamics
• finding the why behind resistance before the how
• setting loving boundaries when one partner avoids
• turning team mindset into daily connection
• practical steps couples can implement today

Find the book, Let's Talk About Sex at shop.ultimateintimacy.com. You can download the app and access additional resources at ultimateintimacy.com or your app store. 


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SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever After podcast. I'm your host, Monica Tanner, and I'm really excited about our guests today. They are my good friends, Nick and Amy McKinley. They have such a cool mission in the world. They have created an app called the Ultimate Intimacy App that is specifically for couples, specifically for teaching Christian-based values around intimacy and healthy intimate practices for married couples. And I'm so excited to dig into their content today. Amy has also written a book with a partner that we'll talk about. So welcome to the podcast, Nick and Amy McKinley. How are you guys doing? Great. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you so much for having us on.

SPEAKER_01:

We're excited. I feel like it's been a long time coming. We've both had such busy things happening in our family, and we're so similar. And so it's been hard to connect our schedules, but I'm so glad we finally did.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you again. Yeah, we had, I think, well, you were on our podcast a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's been a while. Yeah. Yeah. So many fun things have happened since then.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You guys wrote a book. Do you want to talk about your book?

SPEAKER_02:

And yeah, so I was asked by our awesome friend Nate Whitson. He is just a great Christian man trying to help married men mostly just step it up in their marriages, just be the man that God wants them to be. And so he asked me to co-write um the book, Let's Talk About Sex. And I was really excited to partner with him on this. And it's 20 things Christian husbands and wives wish their spouse knew or would do, but don't know how to tell you. And so what we did was we actually pulled our audience and found like what are the top 20 things that wives want their husbands to know about not just sex, but like intimacy in general in marriage. And then what are the top 20 things that husbands want their wives to know when it comes to intimacy in marriage? So it wasn't just, it was fun to do the research, kind of found out like what people like really want their spouse to know, but sometimes have a hard time telling them or really diving deep into that category.

SPEAKER_00:

So well, what I think is great about the book from an outsider reading it is um, you know, the men start reading it and they're like, wait, this isn't talking about sex. You're like, it'll get to it. Wait, this isn't talking about sex yet.

SPEAKER_02:

You're like, you're exactly right because you know the women start emotionally, you know, like and you need to understand that. So yeah, even though it's let's talk about sex, like we're talking about like what it takes to like get a woman going, like where that emotional connection comes through. And so I would say probably the first 10 or 12 out of the 20 things are like this is how you this is where foreplay really starts, guys, you know. So, anyways, it was it was fun to write, and it's yeah, we're excited to share a few parts.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I can't wait to hear about it. So, but just to clarify, so you guys pulled your audience, and that's where you pulled the 20 things from.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's so cool because it's not just like things you pulled out of the air, it's like literally what people who listen to and watch you guys and are part of the app. This is like what they wish they could communicate, which is what I'm all about, is like how to talk about these things because we're not taught. And even let's say we came from a family that was really healthy around sexuality, we still probably didn't it wasn't modeled for us how our parents talked about sexual intimacy. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Because it's so that's not something, yeah, that you're taught.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, we also have the other part of that, which is our how our spouse was raised, right? So we so we may have our experience, but then how was our spouse raised and what's their experience, and how does that dynamic fit in? And for a lot of couples, that can be extremely difficult, right? Whether they were taught that, hey, it's bad, it's bad, it's bad, and now all of a sudden you're married and now it's okay, right?

SPEAKER_02:

So the problem we're finding with every single situation that comes, like we get a lot of messages, a ton of emails, we take a lot of polls and surveys. The problem is always, well, we're we're dealing with this or this, or she does this, or he does this. Have you talked about it? Well, I don't really know how to talk about it. I don't really know how to dive into this conversation. It's really awkward, or it just turns into a fight, or whatever. The problem is, is that couples don't know how to like really, really communicate about intimacy. And so the great thing that we added into our book is let's talk about it. So, yeah, we're going over some really great topics to discuss, but in the book, we decided to add in like conversation starters at the end of every chapter about that topic. This is how you approach your spouse and actually talk about this exact thing. Like we're trying to help you. So it's literally like sex communication, intimacy communication one-on-one.

SPEAKER_00:

Like you're exactly right. I mean, you know, like Amy said, 95% of the time. Well, I don't have you talked about it. Well, I don't know what to say or how to do that. And we feel like almost any anything can be resolved or figured out with good communication, but but it's extremely hard to do. Like, how do you start that? Where do you learn that?

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, and the thing I've noticed too, working with couples is no two couples are the same in this area. Like everybody's desire profiles are different, their opinions are different, their experience are different, preferences. And so, yeah, you've got to talk about it because you know, and here's what's really important. I think we're gonna probably dive into this in the episode is creating a safe space where couples can talk about it. Like, I love talking to my husband about this so much, but one of the things he says he loves about me the most, like one of his favorite things about our marriage is how open we are about it. And I never, I mean, I come from a very different religious background, and so for me, healthy sexuality, I don't know if I would call it healthy sexuality, but open sexuality was much more normal for me. I saw it a lot more, I was much more exposed to like the body and sex and those types of things. So nothing really surprises me. So when my husband's like sharing with me his most intimate, you know, vulnerable thoughts and ideas, I never had any type of reaction except for, oh, okay, cool.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And so he's always like, if I had married somebody who couldn't handle like all of me, I would have, you know, I probably would have rebelled or gone crazy or something like that. And so I am really grateful for that aspect of our relationship and that part of my upbringing because nothing really surprises me. Like I can just, I can just roll with it. Like I'm not like, oh, that's weird. I'm like, oh, okay, well, cool. Let's do it, you know. And so I think that's becomes really important that if you're gonna open up these conversations with your spouse, which you absolutely should, it's about really figuring out how to ground yourself, how to like, you know, keep your reactions, you know, very safe and understanding, inviting, tolerant, and just getting really curious, asking lots of questions, and let your spouse completely reveal themselves to you.

SPEAKER_02:

That's what intimacy is, right? Yeah, yes. And it's a much easier said than done. So much easier. We were like opposite. I think we came from from upbrings where it wasn't really talked about. It was definitely hard for us to never really struggled with the whole topic in our marriage, but didn't really know how to deep dive talk about it until probably year like 15. We've been married 23. And so that's when our intimate life got better, was when we finally ripped that band-aid off and like, let's just talk about all these things and the emotional and all the things that are even deeper than that. And that's when marriage really gets great, right? When you're honest, vulnerable, you can share everything and you can have those really awesome talks.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and when we were able to talk about those things, other things became a lot easier. So our communication completely changed, which our marriage completely changed as well, too. So, I mean, if you can talk about sex, you can most likely talk about anything else, right?

SPEAKER_02:

It's almost like all the other areas of intimacy just get better and better when you can talk about sexual intimacy. I really feel like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And do you find there's kind of a formula for being able to talk about those difficult topics?

SPEAKER_00:

That's a great question. I've never really thought of it that way. Um, I I don't know. I thought that's a good question.

SPEAKER_01:

I didn't think on that. Yeah. Well, I teach a formula, so I I guess I set myself up to answer that question. I'd love to hear it. Yeah, the formula I teach is curiosity plus vulnerability equals creativity. So you can create anything in your marriage if you're willing to lead with curiosity and also you're willing to be vulnerable. And that's hard for people because you've really got to think about, you've got to get curious about yourself, which a lot of people don't doubt. Right, for sure. And then get really curious about your spouse. Like, how do you think this way? Why do you think this way? Where did this start? You know, what are the stories that kind of created your viewpoint on this? And it's so fun. Like, for example, not even talking about sex. My husband and I, one of the things we love to do is go on vacation and we love to walk on the beach. And I love to get his stories, like his money stories. Like, tell me about when you were young and how did your parents spend money and how did you see money and your work ethic. And I love to like gather up these stories and learn how my husband became who he was. And you can apply all of those principles to sexual intimacy as well.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think curiosity that you're stating comes from unselfishness and caring, because that takes the spouse who actually cares like you do to understand him and to get to know him. Where a lot of marriages I feel like are getting very selfish, and I'm like, I don't really care what you want, I care what I want. And that just doesn't work. That main piece is like being unselfish and actually really, really caring. Like we talk a lot about the love languages. Yesterday we did a podcast on opposite love language because we're opposite. And so the basis to that is that I have to care and be unselfish enough to understand what he needs and what he wants, and that's really good.

SPEAKER_00:

And ask those and ask those questions, and vice versa for me, right? Like, yeah, you know, asking how you feel and why you feel that way.

SPEAKER_02:

And you know, to be curious means you're very unselfish and caring. I really love that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and sometimes it's a little scary because you might learn something about your spouse that you don't necessarily like. Wait, hold on, hold on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So good. Well, give us like a few of your favorite things that maybe surprised you or might surprise the audience from the book.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so I was thinking I could share my favorite chapter that I wrote that is labeled. Let me open to it really quick. I'm just gonna read a few of these. Um, my chapter number nine for the women talking to the husbands was healthy masculinity is super sexy. And so I just wanted to share a couple of these points. My first one is the emotional, emotionally availability is hot.

SPEAKER_01:

Agreed.

SPEAKER_02:

Like a man that can be emotionally available for his wife, like so attractive. Um, being a team player is also hot. Confident but not cocky is hot. Owning it like a boss, like taking responsibility for your mistakes, approaching challenges as a real partner in the marriage, super attractive, right? Protector, but not possessor, super attractive. Uh, vulnerability is actually really strong. Um, let her in, share your feelings, share your doubts, dreams. It's like actually really attractive. Like we have found that so many husbands just kind of keep things to themselves, were never really raised to share. Being vulnerable wasn't masculine.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, they were taught just to hold things in and be strong and don't share your weaknesses.

SPEAKER_02:

And really getting on that page, right? Like you're talking about. Um, fit and healthy is also attractive. Just caring and trying, I think a lot of people let themselves go or maybe get lazy in the marriage. Um, provider beyond just finances, like being a true provider goes beyond it, showering her with emotional support, companionship. Um, provider of love and laughter is attractive, and communication is key. And so that's one of my favorite chapters just because I think that a lot of husbands struggle with that whole I need to be the masculine, I need to be the leader, I need to be over the finances, I need to like this when you can become like real unified teammates in the marriage, that's really attractive to a mature wife.

SPEAKER_01:

That's so cool because I kind of dive into that. Well, the podcast episode I just released is called Marriage is the ultimate team sport, and I watch so much team sports. I mean, my husband and I are both the product of you know team sports. We both played soccer in high school. He played in college, he coaches to this day our high school soccer team, and my kids have all played team sports, and so in different ones, none of them soccer, by the way. Yeah, to our great dismay. I mean, I always envision myself as the ultimate soccer mom, and I'm like, what is happening? None of my children will play soccer.

SPEAKER_00:

We have the same thing with golf.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, none of our kids golf, yeah. It's so funny, but I do spend so much time cheering for my kids in these team sports, and it's so cool to get the lessons and watch them learn the lessons. I've learned so much about marriage and relationships from these team sports. And so, yeah, I think you're right. A lot of that it requires a lot of communication, it requires vulnerability, it requires understanding what your role is. It's, you know, it's appreciating each other's differences, right? You can't have a whole bunch of forwards, you wouldn't have any defense, and you can't have a whole bunch of goalies because then who's gonna score? So it's really cool to glean these lessons. And I think you're right, it's really, really hot. All those things that you listed often when you were reading that, I was thinking about how this past week I launched my book that I think we're gonna talk about on your podcast. But it was like it was such a huge week for me. And it wasn't just the book launch, but also my kids had important things that they were doing. We were feeding the volleyball team and the soccer team, and it's like getting to the end of season for them. And my adult children were working on projects, and so we drove down to Utah. And it was just like we accomplished so much in a week, and I felt myself all week long like holding out my fist and like wanting to like fist bump my husband. I'm like, we are such a great team, and it wasn't just like physically what we were accomplishing, but emotionally how we were supporting each other and just all of it together. It was just like, whoa, this is so hot.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's so hot, and it's all comes down to communication. Like, I bet you had a lot of talks like, what is this gonna look like? What is your part? What am I part? How do we how do we keep the conversations going? How do we keep the unif the community feelings going? You know what I mean? Like it just really all comes down to conversation, yeah, for sure. So yeah, yeah, anyways, there's some great stuff for the guys in here. Just like, hey, like you might think differently, but this is really how so many actually most wives feel. Like this is coming from wives. Like we did a lot of research on this, right? So, anyways, go talk to her about it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, right. Take our polls and do the research for it, it's amazing. It's like the percentage of women that feel this way, right? Like it isn't like just a few, it's like the majority.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right. Yeah, and I think what's cool is you can read your book and be informed about that. But what really, really is gonna make it hot is if you go to your spouse and you're like, what does this look like for you actually? Like, yes, in our marriage, how can I support you in this way? How can I make this a reality in our marriage? Like, what does this look like for the two of us and our needs and wants, right? Or what we're trying to create together, our goals, right? So, yeah, you can take the information that's in that book, but then customize it and make it your own for your own marriage because it's gonna look different for everyone.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's what we try to do. It's like read the subject, read the topic, read that little short chapter, read it together, and then here are five questions to go ask your spouse what does this look like to you? Do you find these things this way? Or what would you add to this list, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we found a lot of couples are either buying the book and reading it together, or they each are buying a book and then reading it and then discussing it, which is great.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I just had this vision. Like, can you imagine how hot it would be if you're like on a walk with your spouse who's been reading that book, and all of a sudden they're like asking you these questions, and you're like, wait, really? Yeah, yeah, that would be a total panty dropper.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't I don't think that men realize like certain conversations are so attractive, like for you to not even the conversation itself, but for the fact that you would like want to discuss that and like put yourself, yeah. Just even like come up with that and care, right? It starts with caring.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, yeah, I love it. Nick, what was surprising to you about what you read in the book?

SPEAKER_00:

That's not the first time, it won't be the last. No, it's totally good. It's totally good. I, you know, I think Amy and I are always constantly talking about this, and so um, yeah, but I think I think still, yeah, there's certain things that surprise me because I think we, you know, a lot of times we hear, oh, this is what she wants, but then you know, put it in the book and like, oh, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

So he got we I got done writing my section of the book, and he's like, Well, let me read it. And he's like, Wow, I learned stuff. Yeah, 23 years and I learned stuff. I'm like, what did you learn?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, maybe maybe it's because as men, sometimes we aren't the greatest at listening, right? So uh, but and and also as men, sometimes we just need to be told, hey, here's what I need from you, or here's here's what I want you to do.

SPEAKER_02:

And a good man is like, Yeah, yeah, I'll do that.

SPEAKER_00:

Like, so yeah, no, I I I thought the book was phenomenal. Um, like Amy said, yeah, I read through it. I'm like, man, I I've learned a lot in this book, you know, even with what we do.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's pretty straightforward.

SPEAKER_00:

It's very straightforward, tells you exactly. I mean, leave you aren't guessing after you read it, right? You know exactly what what to do and how to do it, and the the conversation starters to prompt good conversations, the questions to ask. I think, I think that's a lot of it too, as men, uh, we're afraid of asking certain questions for fear of our spouse saying, Well, why is he asking me this question? Where is he getting these ideas? Or, you know, those types of things. And so I I think having those questions are just awesome.

SPEAKER_02:

When we got done with this book and we read through and are like, okay, these are some really great topics. I think they're really important to talk about. But I feel like we need like a part two. So what we did is we went and created in our uh a card deck called Let's Talk About Sex, and we have 150 conversation starters that we actually sell with the book that are all about why you should just not just like the conversations themselves, which start start with like emotional intimacy to the sexual intimacy, but also why having those conversations is so important. So I feel like the book and the card deck go like hand in hand because it's like deep diving into almost everything.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and the reason why those are so good um is because it's a lot easier to read a question off of a book or a card because then you're spout, you know, you can say, hey, I'm reading this off a book. It's all right, like it's a good idea. You can make a game out of it. Yeah. But this is this is telling me to ask you this question. And then it just can create a really easy conversation. I mean, we hear all the time like, I cannot believe how much easier this makes these conversations to have. And then as you start having them, naturally they're gonna, you know, continue and get deeper and deeper.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I imagine there's a version of that in your app as well.

SPEAKER_00:

For sure.

SPEAKER_02:

We did add the let's talk about sex card deck questions into an app feature. Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, because again, if couples can get talking openly and have good communication, I mean that's that's I I feel like that's kind of the foundation to everything in a good marriage.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, agreed. Agreed. It's like I was talking about communication. Can you imagine watching a football game where the quarterback wasn't calling any plays? Like, how would anybody know if we're doing, are we doing a running play? Are we doing a passing play? Like, who needs to be ready? Where do we line up? Like, who's the man in motion? Like, you've got to be willing to huddle up and talk about, communicate what is happening on the field. How do we readjust? How do we, you know, all of these things are so, so, so important. And I think for couples, whether you're just starting out, which is so good for, or you've been married for decades. Like, I still talk to couples who struggle to talk about these things, and not because they're not a great couple or they don't love each other, their marriage isn't amazing. It's just that we weren't taught this, it wasn't modeled for us, and so we don't have a good playbook to follow. So that's why I'm really excited for this book and to get it out into people's hands because it really is. It's like a play-by-play. It's like, yeah, but yeah, what do you need to do to win?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I would say most couples have a hard time talking about certain things. Like, I don't think it's just a few couples, I feel like it's most couples. And that doesn't mean they're gonna have a bad marriage or anything like that necessarily, but their marriage could be so much better if they could learn to communicate better. And I think a lot of it is just, you know, like I said, fear of what's my spouse gonna think about me asking this question, or it could be fear of rejection, right? Like, are they gonna reject me? Are they gonna think differently? Um, and it could be so many different things. But again, as as we learn to have better communication, it's amazing how much uh marriage just overall gets better.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so here's a very serious question. What if you have one spouse who's really resistant and they're like, I just don't want to talk about this? Or they've kind of created some sort of power dynamic in in the relationship around sexual intimacy and they don't want to mess with it. And so, you know, maybe one spouse is picking up the book and the other spouse is like, I don't want to talk about it. Then what?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that is the exact podcast we had an expert on, marriage therapist of what, 25 years on the other day to ask that exact question.

SPEAKER_01:

Ooh, what did she say?

SPEAKER_02:

Happens because I literally know I'm like, I don't know when someone's completely checked down, doesn't want to fix it, right? And his answer was literally marriage takes two. Marriage takes two. You have to have both both people wanting to have a good marriage for a good marriage to happen. So in that situation, like, like, say the husband doesn't want to talk about these things, he's just kind of checked out, or maybe it's the wife, either way, that one person can work on themselves. They can do what they can, you know, everything they can do to be healthy and strong. But there comes a point where you have to get to a point where you're like, I have needs, we need to find a way to discuss this. It's baby steps, right? Like, you have needs, I have needs, I know you want. Like, that's the crazy thing is that everyone got married to have a passionate marriage. Everyone wants a happy marriage. Like, I know you want this too. Where can we start? Even if it's just literally little tiny baby steps, where do we start and what do you feel comfortable with? And then hopefully that will grow. Because I think a lot of husbands or wives that didn't grow up with that knowledge of how to communicate, how to talk about it. Like, if they can like kind of just start somewhere that makes them feel safe, like this conversation isn't so bad, right? And then it can grow better and better. I mean, I don't feel like we had any issues of communicating when we got married, but how many people can just be like, I hope I wish you would touch me there? I wish you would focus on this area. Like, that's kind of embarrassing when you get married to be like just telling them what you want, right? And it took us years and years and years to rip that bandit down. And I I don't know if you know our story, but like a year 15, 16, 17, somewhere in there, I bought a bedroom game and I literally said, I'm bored. I'm bored. You're bored with this, super offended. Like, wait, wait, you know, and it was a really awkward moment. It was a couple days of like, I'm just kidding, I don't know why I bought that. I was ashamed, I was embarrassed. And he came back and he's like, Why would I deny like wanting to better our intimate life? And at the time I thought I was just like sexually broken, but we were going through a lot of emotional stuff together, and I thought I was kind of broken. We started even just that conversation, like, I'm bored.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, it changed everything.

SPEAKER_02:

It wasn't that I was bored, it was that we were missing so much emotional connection and emotional conversations. So sometimes it's totally different than you think it's gonna be. Something, something else is broken when you think something's broken over here.

SPEAKER_00:

So well, the funny thing is, is we did it total opposite. Like, usually people would need to start talking about emotional stuff and having better conversations and figuring those things out before their sex life, they talk about their sex life or before that gets better. We kind of did it backwards, but it still worked the same way, right? Like once we started talking about sex, we could talk about all these other hard topics that we were kind of ignoring and things like that. So I don't think it really matters how you start but talking about it. But getting getting back into your question, I think that's a really tough question. Like Amy said, um, it has to be both of you wanting to talk about that. But I would say um sometimes it's hard just to dive into things and start talking about certain things. If you can find out the reason why your spouse is hesitant, you know, maybe it's something that happened in the past, maybe, maybe it's things they're dealing with. But if you can find out the why and then start uh, you know, approaching it from that aspect of figuring out the why, then you can start getting getting into um figuring out the how, right? And so I think sometimes, you know, people just get really frustrated and they're like, why won't you talk to me about this? What, you know, and it's just like banging a wall. But if you can understand the reason why they're struggling with that, then I think you can get into the, okay, how do we, how do we start, you know, breaking down that barrier, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because there are a lot of times barriers that keep couples from being able to communicate effectively. And so again, unless you know what that barrier is, it isn't it it's it's hard to progress and say, hey, let's just talk about things until you get barriers.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, and whether you're a man or a woman, I think we both need to feel safety, right? Emotional safety is key. So making your spouse feel like you're safe to share with me. I'm right here, I'm not going anywhere. I love you for who you are. Let's figure out why you feel this way. That's that's a great.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think our marriage is a good example. I'm kind of uh the type of person that if something's difficult to talk about, well, not anymore. But in in in the past, in our first in our marriage, if it was a difficult conversation, I'd kind of just close up and you know, shy away and let's not talk about it. Now I'm the complete opposite. Like Amy's some probably sometimes like, hey, shut up. I don't want to talk about now, you know what I mean. Like now I want to talk about everything, but but it but I I learned, you know, we broke down those barriers, and now it's just like we can we can talk about anything. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you want to hear my really controversial answer? And since it's my podcast, I get to talk about it. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like sometimes, especially in our culture, we get really comfortable thinking that, you know, we made covenants, and so your partner is locked in, and maybe you're not uncomfortable in your sexual arrangement, or you know, maybe you're the lower desire partner and you kind of have control, and so nothing really you don't feel like anything needs to change, and so bringing up those types of conversations isn't something that you want to do because you're not uncomfortable. And so, in my training and working with couples, especially because I have a lot of higher desire partners that come to me for counseling, and their partners don't want to come because they don't want to change the dynamic of how things are, because they are in control of that, you know, kind of sexual relationship. And so, what I work with the usually typically the higher desire partner on is if they don't feel uncomfortable, they're not gonna come to the table. And so sometimes you have to make some ultimatums, sometimes you have to make some choices that are difficult or I don't want to say threats, but you do have to let your partner know in a loving way that you are uncomfortable and that you're not willing to provide some comforts that your partner is maybe used to unless they're willing to come to the table and work on the things that need to be worked on in the relationship. And so I get a lot of pushback, it's a very controversial position. However, I don't think that you should get so complacent in your marriage and so comfortable in your covenants that you're not willing to take into consideration your partner's comfort.

SPEAKER_00:

I one of the one of the things you hit on, which is uh Um, the lower desire spouse being comfortable with where they're at. Um, we've written articles, we've done podcasts, different things like that, how the lower desire spouse typically controls the if and when sex is going to happen, right? Because they're they're comfortable with everything. Why do I need to change anything? I'm I'm loving life this way. And like you said, the higher desire spouse is like this, you know, I'm not feeling connected, I don't feel loved, I don't feel desired. And so hitting on that, we we also see a lot of that, um, you know, with the people we talk with, and and it is, it's finding finding that balance. And I think, I think you're right. You sometimes you have to have that tough love and say, hey, look, this is how I'm feeling. And I I need you to understand how I'm feeling and listen to how I'm feeling, uh, or at least be able to get it out. Um and then they have they obviously have to decide, okay, am I gonna do I do I love my spouse? Am I going to um listen to what they're saying and how am I gonna react to that or what am I gonna do? And um, you know, they have that free agency, of course. But uh yeah, in marriage, you know, it it's so hard because it does take two to have the what we call ultimate intimacy, right? Two spouses that and and and that that doesn't mean that the lower desire spouse is always giving in or the higher desire spouse is just making love whenever they want. There's that balance and finding finding that healthy balance that works for for both of you. And I think that's the way God designed it, right? Is to sacrifice on both ends and find find that balance.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I don't think what you said should be controversial at all.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't either.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think in marriage we make promises, and when we make promises and commitments and covenants, like you said, I I think that needs to be held to a high extreme. And so we we deal with a lot of that. I when I say marriage takes two, like it takes two. It takes sitting down and having really hard conversations. Like I'm not happy in in this area of our marriage. This needs to be discussed, right? This is very important for it just to discuss, and both spouses' needs and wants and desires, whatever that is, emotionally, sexually, whatever, it needs to be discussed. It's very important.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I come from divorced parents, right? And so, you know, a lot of a lot of Christians feel like, oh, I can't get divorced because of that covenant that I've made, and therefore that's completely off the table. But I also believe God wants you to be happy, right? And my my parents that are divorced are now in wonderful marriages, they're both extremely happy. And uh, you know, like I guess the point I'm getting at is marriage, marriage does take two.

SPEAKER_02:

It does take two.

SPEAKER_00:

And and if one spouse isn't willing to um be a part of that, be a part of that, it's it's really tough.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Hopefully we can fix that, right? Hopefully, everything that we're both trying to do, books, podcasting, the app, just like everything we're trying to get out there. Like, let's get people talking, let's get people thriving, let's get both spouses starting to understand each other. That's what it comes to.

SPEAKER_00:

I want to I want to just share real quick. We got an email two days ago, and it was this guy that emailed us, and he's like, Hey, we've been listening to your podcast and implementing the tools and things. And he's like, My wife and I just made love for the first time in 10 weeks.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. And like she she actually is like, Don't you just want to be like, Congratulations, dude. That's awesome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, not only that, but he's like, My wife is giving me hugs, she's she's uh touching me, she's like it's a totally different. And he's like, part of it was we're learning the right tools, right? And so, you know, he's like, I'm learning that I needed to step it up in all these ways, and now her reaction is exactly what I yeah, exactly what I've been hoping for. And so that was a really cool email. And I think oftentimes it's just getting the right tools and understanding how to use these tools can just be game-changing. Because, like Amy said, I think for the majority of couples out there, even the ones that are really struggling, both of them want to have a happy, intimate, romantic marriage, but they just don't have the tools, or there's things going on in the marriage that are are obviously prohibiting that or causing disconnect.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, so good. Okay, well, one of the best tools I think is the book, Let's Talk About Sex. So, can you give the listeners how do they find it? I know I had a I I was looking for it and I was like, where do I find this book? You had to send me the link. So let the listeners know how they can get their hands on it.

SPEAKER_02:

So our book is at shop.ultimateintimacy.com. That's where our all of our products are, that's where our card decks are, that's where our all of our intimate stuff is. Um, like I said, also the card deck, which a lot of the questions from this book are also found on the Ultimate Intimacy app. You can download at ultimateintimacy.com or just go to the app store.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and you can also access everything from ultimateintimacy.com as well. So that's a little bit easier to remember.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

But yeah, and then you can reach out to us if you have any questions at all, just Amy at ultimateintimacy.com and we're happy to answer any questions you have.

SPEAKER_01:

Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for your time today. Thank you so much for the incredible work you're doing for couples. I love that you guys have the ability to, you know, do polls and talk to like massive groups of people and get their experience. That is something I have not quite figured out how to get engagement on. So I'm glad that I can go to your content and see, you know, what people are really struggling with. So thank you guys for the amazing work that you're doing. And thanks for taking the time to show up here today and go get the book so you can have these conversations and really dial it in. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thank you so much.