Marriage and Intimacy Tips for Christian Couples: Secrets of Happily Ever After

Shoveling Sh*t Together: How Kass and Mike Built Companies, Raised Kids, and Kept Their Marriage Intact

• Monica Tanner, Kass Lazerow, Mike Lazerow • Season 4 • Episode 344

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What if the real love story isn’t candlelight and grand gestures, but calendars, clarity, and courage under pressure? I sit down with Kass and Mike Lazerow—longtime partners in life and business—to unpack how they navigated Web 1.0 startups, gut-punch setbacks, and life-changing, $345 million-dollar exits while raising three kids and staying on the same team. Their answers aren’t glossy; they’re practical, repeatable, and surprisingly tender.

We explore how role clarity at home mirrors smart org design at work: defined lanes reduce friction and protect respect. Mike shares why he stopped “selling” inconvenient choices and started owning the impact; Kass explains the power of saying, “No, I’m not happy you’re going”—and not forcing a bow on hard truths. Together they map out their three core cheat codes: share the load through good and bad, invest in the relationship with consistent date nights and short getaways, and build teamwork through radical transparency, fair fights, and fast repair. We also dive into the “pivot” mindset: do more of what works, less of what doesn’t and how boredom and novelty can coexist to keep a marriage alive.

From parenting toddlers to guiding adult kids, from almost losing it all to scaling Buddy Media to a massive exit, Kass and Mike show how trust, weekly meetings, and a shared vision can carry a couple through chaos. If you’ve ever wondered how to blend ambition with intimacy, or how to reset when resentment creeps in, this conversation gives you a clear playbook: define your lanes, tell the truth, meet weekly, repair quickly, and keep dating. 

You can reach them at info@kassandmike.com or DM them on social. Buy Shoveling Sh*t on Amazon and please review if you like it.

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SPEAKER_02:

Hello and welcome to the Secrets of Happily Ever After podcast. I'm your host, Monica Tanner, and I'm really, really excited about our guest today. They are Mike and Cass Lazaro, the New York Times bestselling authors of the book Shoveling Shit. And I am so, so, so excited to get into this topic with them because they have been wildly successful in business, and they've also been through a lot of ups and downs. And I am so excited to explore the relational relationship parts of all of this. Of course, this podcast is called Secrets of Happily Ever After. So I want to just really dig into how did you guys stay connected and on the same page and moving in the same direction during all of this chaos? So your book has a bold title, Shoveling Shit. So I am wondering why you chose to frame your entrepreneurship journey as a love story as well. Mikey, start.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So Cass and I've been together for almost 30 years, and a consistent part of our relationship has been business. We actually launched a business before we got married, which we would not recommend as the default way that businesses should be started, but it felt right to us. We had a shared passion for innovation at this point many, many years ago, internet and web 1.0. And very quickly it became apparent that we were going to have this kind of imbalanced life of the entrepreneur where we wanted to grow companies and make money and you know fulfill that side of our life. But we also wanted a family and we had kind of a vision for our life. And so we've had three kids. We kind of had kids around each of the kind of company starting or key moments in the company. And I think the consistent part of our relationship is any co-founder relationship at work and any marriage, it's just about communication. And it's about kind of fighting fairly, not being passive-aggressive, being aggressive, um, respecting the other person for who they are and not giving away who you are. And I think because of the shared life, we've been able to play to our strengths and really make up for some of the weaknesses personally and professionally that each of us has.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, we we met each other, we've always known each other because I um kind of grew up in his house and as friends with his older brother. Um, his older brother and I are the same age, and Mike's a little younger. And, you know, so we had a lot in in common, right? We had the same kind of morals and values growing up around the same people. Went to, I went to the all-girls school, he went to the all-boys' school. But when we connected later on in life, we both had this shared interest of, you know, Web 1.0, the internet. Like, what was this? This is back in like 1996. And from that moment on, I think we both saw each other's expertise and excitement, and then respected each other's expertise, which I think was a big deal, and actually laid the foundation for things going well at home, if that makes sense. Because we were apart for a year and then we moved in together, and we would rely on each other in our separate jobs to help each other, right? And when we started companies together, we always had a date night. It wasn't we did as much as we could to not talk about work, and it was about nurturing what we both like were excited about. And then once you throw kids into it, it's a whole different wrench. And I think if I think that's been the hardest part for me is like two people parenting different humans. That's really hard, really, really hard. And um we got through it. We could we're still doing it, but we've gotten through the hard times, or at least a lot of hard times.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you you have you're parenting all adult children. I have yeah, so I'm half and half. I've got two adult children and two children at home, so it's different. Yeah, parenting adult children. It changes the game.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And bigger kids, bigger problems, less time to really make an impact as a parent. But I think, um, I think we really laid the foundation for our marriage because when you work with someone, you know, it's business. You you have to have thicker skin. You, you, you know, things are not going to be as sugar coated. This is work. And that really helped in our other parts of life, our our personal parts.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So in your book, you talk about role clarity in your business. And so, like staying, which is staying in your lane. The way I talk about it when I coach entrepreneurs is I talk about staying in your office. Like each person has an office and you stay in your office. But how does that play out in your marriage when you disagree? Mike, you want to take it or you want me?

SPEAKER_00:

So, I mean, I could take it to start. I think it's the same approach, whether it's marriage or home. And, you know, when you start a business, you pick a co-founder. When you get married, you've picked like a life partner, right? And the advice, as we wrote the book, the advice I would give to both people picking spouses and co-founders are kind of the same. And, you know, there are about 10 different ideas that you know we talk about, but one of them is what you mailed. And, you know, it's this idea that you need to divide responsibilities clearly. Otherwise, you are gonna step on each other's toes. You're not going to optimize your relationship. And so there's certain things that are my lanes. And so I've always handled like religion and travel, and I do a lot of the cooking, even though we both like cooking. I kind of enjoy the end of the day just, you know, relaxing my mind and and cooking. And so she does 95% of everything, right? She does all of like as a kid's grow up, the doctor's forms and the school forms and the appointments. And at work, I'm more the visionary and she's more of the operator, right? And so find someone who compliments you, whatever that means in your life. And whether it's a co-founder or a spouse, I think having people who you know appreciate the strengths and the weaknesses, like we all appreciate strengths of people, but like, you know, are these the weaknesses that you would be okay with? Like, if you know your spouse is gonna have weaknesses, are these ones that you're cool with?

SPEAKER_01:

And have those conver. Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

If it if they're not, run, right?

SPEAKER_01:

And so the conversations you have to have involve um values, like and and having those conversations like early, right, Mike? Like talking about that early. I think us working together so early in our relationship forced those conversations. And then the personal ones would kind of spill out because we're like, well, if we're talking about this, like, how do you want to raise the kids? Right. And I see a lot of young people these days, not just entrepreneurs, but just people in general that are not having the difficult, awkward, uncomfortable situations because they're afraid of the answers. And the answers aren't the end, right? It's just more data, and it's in and that helps you in the in the long run. So, you know, we would have conversations. I I specifically remember this conversation with Mike about how we were going to raise the kids. And he said, Well, I feel very strongly about them being Jewish. And I said, I'm totally fine with that. I feel very strongly that there are a lot of Christmas trees in my home. And he looked at me and said, Sounds great. And that was that, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Hanukkah Harry came to our house. So we just had Hanukkah trees. Right, right. Yes. I love it. Can you give an example of like a recent disagreement and like what that would look like if the two of you had different opinions on something and like maybe whose lane it was in, or and is this work-wise or or personally?

SPEAKER_01:

Personally. Let's see. Um maybe with one of the kids, or it's definitely always one of the kids.

SPEAKER_00:

I would say wouldn't you say okay, go, Mike. You know, we just became empty nesters and we dropped our daughter off on a Tuesday. So it was about a month ago. And we made a commitment that we're going to like, you know, do new stuff together and celebrate it. That weekend, one of my longtime friends had a 60th birthday party in Vegas. And so I said, listen, I know I said we would do all these things, but I also have this. And we just got it out on the table, spoke about it, and came to a good place, um, which is like, yeah, I need to show up for a friend, and we're gonna continue to kind of celebrate our you know, free burden um the following week, which we did. And we did the night before. We had a really nice dinner. And so, you know, that may seem small, but if you don't talk about them, like in the past, I would try to like spin it and sell it and convince her why things are actually good for her. And then at some point it was like, listen, you're not gonna like this. I know it's gonna cause some like more work on your plate when the kids were young, but I'm going to a four-day fish the band, you know, kind of stand in Vegas. And I just want to make sure, unless there's like anything that I'm not seeing, I appreciate the support. And I know that this is gonna be miserable when I'm gone and you have three kids. Like tackle issues, get ahead of them. And it's not that that's a big issue, but if you do it again and again and again, resentment builds up on either side. And whatever the answer is, whatever, however, you end, you move forward. You don't look back, you don't accuse. You know, short memories are a great thing.

SPEAKER_01:

I also think that we became, or at least I could just speak for myself. I became okay with saying, like, you know, like, no, I'm not happy with you going. And that's it. Yeah. Like, I don't need to make him feel better about something that was a conflict on his part that breaks the agreement. And I think when people do that in a relationship, it holds them accountable a little bit more. You know, you're not it just like it's not my job to make you feel better about the decision you're making, right? And I think a lot of people do that in relationships. It was a tough choice, and I was bummed, and it is what it is, and he was apologetic and also knew we didn't have to put a bow on it that everything was okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I love that because he still gets to make his own choices, but he doesn't get to choose how you feel about his choices, right? So that's a very important thing.

SPEAKER_00:

And you have to be okay with your choices, like choices have consequences, and so I think I become, and there are examples on both sides, but I become much more um thoughtful on how and when I kind of do selfish things, and how often I think everyone should, yeah, and how often like you have to do things to make you happy, and if you want, if you value relationships, you have to understand how they impact the relationship, and you have to be able to. It took me a long time to hold like two ideas that were like opposing, right? Like these dialectics in our lives, which is like I really want to do this, and I'm gonna do this, and my business partner, my wife is not happy about it. Okay, I'm not asking her to be happy, and I'm gonna do it, and you have to be okay with that, which is was difficult for me for many years, especially with young kids who needed us.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. So, uh, a concept that we both really like is this idea of cheat codes. You you have a lot in your book, which is so fun. I love a good cheat code. I talk about a lot of cheat codes in marriage. So I'm wondering if you could give us like your top three cheat codes for and I should set this up a little bit because when you guys came to speak at the event that I first saw you and met you at, you told this story about how you were about to lose golf.com and like this, you know, you thought you had this awesome exit, and then you're about to lose everything, and you took off to I think San Francisco, and you shared a motel room with your business partner. And I'm sitting here thinking, oh my gosh, like that would be horrible. And then you like have this wild like swing into now you're making$345 million exits from oh, what's it, buddy media buddy? Buddy media, exactly. Buddy media. Sorry, I'm not very technical. Media buddy, and that's a huge like swing of circumstances. Like most couples can't weather the storms that come from extreme hardship to extreme wealth and everything that is required, shoveling all the shit in between. So I'm wondering if you can give us like three cheat codes for your relationship on how you kind of got through all the really messy parts of that.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you know, it's hard to say the cheat codes without realizing you know, you also pick the right person, right? So you know, I think both of us don't want to go through things without each other. And I think that is the premise of I would say my resent if I ever get resentful. It's like, wait, I don't want to do this alone. This is not what I signed up for. So I think a cheat code is that you go through the good times and the bad times. It's not one person's responsibility. And just because it's not fun doesn't mean it still doesn't need the same, you know, combined support, right? So I think that's one is that you have to have to make sure that you're sharing the load of of the of this of the actual bad times because it's it's you know, it's not fun. Like what I think, and Mike can speak for himself, but I think he did find out because he was younger than I am, that life isn't always fun, right? I mean, I think there's people out there who think it's just you get married, everything's fine, you're gonna have kids. You have no idea who you're getting, right? When you have kids, they're all different, they all have different needs, they relate to you, each parent differently in different stages. And so it's it's that's a big one. I think another cheat code is we've always gone on dates as often as we can, um, away from the kids. So I think that's like a big deal. When they were younger, um, it's actually easier to leave them if we ever went even just a night overnight somewhere or you know, one to two nights. We always tried to get away from them just to remember us. Mike, do you have any other cheat codes?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that's a really big one. Um, and it's big if you're married, it's big if you just have a co-founder. Um, and so you're gonna lose the relationship if you don't invest in it. If it's just about work, your marriage, like if you're working with your spouse, you're gonna lose like everything that's great about marriage, right? Like the humanity aspect of it, the intimacy. Um, and vice versa, like co-founders can lose their relationships if it's all like board decks and hiring decisions, and they're not like taking time to like have breakfast and go see music or play golf or connect as humans, right? Um, so don't lose a humanity in the marriage for sure. Always date each other. I think the one thing that I look back at a relationship, it's kind of you know, just fight fair. Like disagreements are inevitable. Like you're not if assuming your spouse is a thinking person, which I think everyone who's tuned in here has a if they have a spouse, you know, bare minimum they're a thinking human being, um you know, attack like the problem, not the person. Like, don't bring up like past battles as examples. Like, I hate that. Like, yeah, you did this like when Miles was two. I'm like, yeah, but I was such an unevolved, like man child. Like, yes, and I've learned from that, and you know I have, right? And then like resolve it quickly. Like, the longer something lingers with Cass, that tension builds up. Whereas if I'm just like, listen, do you have time to sit down? Like, I'm really sorry. I know you're pissed. I'm sorry I didn't listen and did this. I know that caused tons of headache. I can't reverse it. I am gonna be proactive and not reactive in the future. I'm doing everything I can to make sure that it doesn't happen again. Um like that conversation is a tough one for a lot of guys to have. Some women, but I feel like women are like better communicating emotions in my world. Maybe they're not, but um and what happens is you get over it fast, and the other person feels like they are being seen because you know, and typically it's like, well, I shouldn't have done this, right? And so it's like a mutual, I'm sorry, even though I don't like love that. Like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, it doesn't really mean anything, especially if you're you've done it a hundred times. Um, the other thing that I think is just you know key is just trust. Like realize that once trust is broken, it's like impossible to rebuild in whatever setting it is. I'm not talking about like infidelity and that's that's like a bare minimum, right? I'm talking about like I said I would do this, and you know, it's one thing to forget every now and then, but if your partner can't trust you to just do the bare minimum of what you say you're gonna do, like you're destined for failure marriage and co-founder relationship.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so let me see if I can summarize what we just talked about into the three cheat codes. I would say the first uh from Cass was um was repair or no, stand together through the good times and the bad. So be there for each other, stand with each other. Yeah, share the bad times. Yeah, share the load. Okay, I love that. Share the load through the good times and the bad times.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So I think cheat code number one, cheat code number two, it was a good combination of the two of you, I think is to um invest in the relationship. And your your your good tip is through date nights is really, really important, date nights and getting away as a couple. And then the third cheat code, I think, is build teamwork through communication and trust is what I heard you guys say.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think Mike was was probably getting at if you heal little fights along the way, they don't become a pile of books that fall over and become much bigger to clean up.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's really good. So the way I kind of describe that when I'm talking to my couples is like doing the dishes, right? Like if you just do the dishes as they get used, it's much more effective than having this massive pile of shaked on grime dishes, and nobody wants to address that. Right, exactly. Yeah, so good. Okay, I love those cheat codes. I love them. All right. So, my next question is what's one thing that everyday couples, not just entrepreneurs, can take from your book and apply to their marriage?

SPEAKER_01:

I would say uh radical transparency. So we we talk about how, and Mike touched on a little bit, we talk in the book about how that creates trust. And Mike just mentioned trust, like say what you mean, me what you say. And if you can be transparent all of the time, then you begin to rely on each other and you rely on each other for each other's strengths and understand and forgive their weaknesses and accept them. So I would say that, like again, it's this idea that you're not trying to make your job, isn't it each other to try to make someone else comfortable with your own feelings and whatever. Your job is to be transparent and work on things together.

SPEAKER_02:

Love that.

SPEAKER_01:

So good.

SPEAKER_02:

Mike, what would you say?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, there's a concept that we're really we spent a lot of time in the middle of and thinking about called the pivot, which is basically like you make all these plans, you launch, and things don't go your way. And it's critical as a company to not do what's not working, right? And to pivot. And I think the same is true for marriages, that if something isn't working, find a way to get things working. And so if he doesn't like what you're doing, like don't do it, right? Like find a new behavior, and vice versa. If you know, there's this concept of like just always you have to like keep it fresh, you have to be innovative, um, which is what date nights were for us. Like, even though we're working hard, it forced us to like think about how we want to spend time together. Sometimes it was dinner, sometimes we didn't even have the energy to leave the apartment, sometimes it was a Broadway show or something else. And so, just this idea of like change, do more of what's working and less of what isn't working, don't get set in like we're in this world of AI where anyone who clings to old models, I think, is going to be left behind that across the board, whether it's how you sell, how you service like customers, how you build product, all of that is changing with virtual employees, these agentic employees. And in many ways, I think your marriage has to evolve like that. Like you have to like look for new things, exciting things to do together, and not just get stuck in old habits that get boring and build up resentment. Um, and so for us, it's now you know, we're new phase of our life, we're planning a bunch of adventure travel, some things that we want to learn that we've never had time, we could learn together, right? Cass has always wanted to be a professional ballroom dancer. I don't know if that's true, but I throw it out there. But that could be something that who knows, we do. Like we're going to the Arctic, which we've never been because we've had kids. We're diving into longevity, you know, because we have some time and some resources to figure out like, is there anything we should be doing to potentially enhance our health span? Um and so, you know, you get married, and all of a sudden it's like you find yourself sitting next to the same person on the couch, and people just get resentment, resentful and bored and feel like they don't have any agency, that they're just a victim. But Mike, you gotta pay, you gotta like move in different directions.

SPEAKER_01:

I also think that it's okay to be bored. Like, I'm I'm like I tell my kids, I'm sure you do too, Monica, that like they'll come up to me and be like, I'm so bored. I'm like awesome, great. There'll be very few times in your life going forward where you will feel that way. Awesome. Why does it feel uncomfortable? Right. So, you know, I think you know, I think you evolve as time goes on. And you know, we had what three and a half years before we had kids, but we were running companies together. So that kind of sped up um how close we were. And then we had what three years before or two years before we had our first child. And then kids really, I mean, for good or for bad, like they really changed dynamics because you have your personalities, your own parent baggage from your families of origin in the parenting. And despite that, like you have different agendas most of the time. Like that's something I think that Mike and I finally figured out. I don't know, 10 years in that you know, you parent the way you weren't parented or what you missed from. And sometimes those drive things as opposed to doing it together or whatever that is.

SPEAKER_02:

So yeah, that is kind of a long-winded all over the answer, but yeah, no, I think that's so important because you you want to feel comfort, you want to feel comfort in each other. So that's a little bit of that boredom, but you also want to be able to renegotiate, like you always want to be growing and evolving with each other, exactly. Um, sharing that with each other. So I think both of those, it's holding the two things, Mike, right? Like it's it's being able to hold both of those and love all of that. And I am so grateful for your time today. I know you guys are super busy, and I just I want to respect your time. So I'm gonna skip right to this last question, which is basically the crux of this podcast, which is if your kids asked you, what's the secret to happily ever after, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_00:

I think the secret to happily ever after is picking the right partner to start with. If you pick the right partner, you get a lot of things right. And you don't pick for convenience, you pick for character and long term fit and shared vision, and you know, uh having a life that's like anchored around a shared vision. You know, a why like is really important, and too many people um aren't as proactive as they should. They either settle later in life or they're just like, oh, let's just get married, right? And so much follows from that decision. If you don't get it right, you have no chance. Literally no chance. Like you're gonna be miserable, he or she's gonna be miserable, you're not gonna be able to, if you're miserable at home, you're not gonna be able to perform in any other part of your life unless you're a psychopath, which none of your listeners are. Um and I think that's the only thing I got right, and then I worked on it a lot. Therapy, self-awareness. If you pick right, that partner will help you address your shortcomings in a loving way, which I had many coming into the relationship at 22 years old.

SPEAKER_01:

I I mean, I would say like there's two, if I could um say like I said, just one just one that's illegal. I just I said the healing one, like heal things along the way, because I think that really helps. But I think the thing that I've realized from entrepreneurship and running companies with Mike is we always say to each other, can we get on the same page about this? And one of the things that we've done really well is sat down purposeful time to look at weeks, look at days, look at subject matters, things we have to figure out, things we have to get off our to-do list or get back to people or social plans. It's not one of us is doing the social plans. We're a team. And so I would say to everyone listening, even if you're very young in a marriage, you know, you're not gonna know what the other person's thinking. You think you you there's this like a fantasy out there that when you pick the right person, you're still gonna, everything's gonna magically fall in place and you're always gonna know what you should do and never have to talk about things. And it's just a load of of crap. Okay, it's just not true. You can pick the right person, but the next step should be have a weekly meeting. Have a weekly meeting, right? And if you have kids, it's got to be without the kids. And you're sitting there, yes, you can you go over what you have coming up and and logistics, but also like what are the goals? Talk about like, hey, what do we want for this year? Because that also helps to skirt around um resentment that builds up, right? So, you know, big time. I think that that idea that people are not gonna magically know what you want or what you think, even if you pick the right person, have the meetings and call them meetings. Who cares if you meet with your partner, your spouse? You need to. You have a big life that you're you know, you're you're journeying on for 50, 60 years. You can't just, you know, think that he's gonna or she's gonna know what's going on.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so good. I love it. Any last words? I mean, tell people where they can find the book.

SPEAKER_01:

And, you know, if they have a pitch for you, I'm sure there's people listening who are like they can always, you know, reach us at info at cast and mic.com or DM us on any of the you know social channels. We're the ones actually getting back to people. We love entrepreneurs, and you can buy the book on Amazon. So we welcome everyone to you know get a copy, tell us what you think. Definitely review it if you like it. That would be awesome. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, thank you guys so, so much for this. This has been amazing. I hope that entrepreneurs and non-entrepreneurs alike will learn something from shoveling shit in relationships and in business. And um, you know, go give Mike and Cass or Cass and Mike. It's Cass and Mike on all the socials. Go give them a follow, reach out, and thank you guys again so much for your time. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Appreciate it.